Where Will Sanguinius Rank Among The Primarchs?

[1ncarnadine]

That'll still be nearly half with swords when the're all released.

Maybe my issue has more to do with "x Primarch is the besterest swordsman ever". Fulgrim, Sanguinius, The Khan, The Lion.

Give them different weapons and you can break it up a bit.

I honestly agree. Variety is definitely more interesting.

@Rakta: You mean in the duel that Russ had in order to try and fail to teach Angron a lesson.

Yea, thats a good measure of Russ's abilities *sarcasm*

Let's remember that when Horus kills Sanguinius, Sanguinius had only landed one blow on Horus and Horus chose to use his bare hands to kill SAnguinius.

Im not saying Sanguinius is crap, I think he should be in the top 5 (Horus, Angron, Sanguinius, Russ and the Lion) but him equaling Horus pre or post chaos is unlikely in my opinion.

WLK

That's a pretty solid top 5. It also makes a lot of sense for Sanguinius, Russ and the Lion to all be quite expensive and powerful. Remember that for game balance, these guys aren't far from having to contend with things on the board like Daemon Angron and Daemon Fulgrim...

I think that top group should be pretty tight. Always seen Horus as the first amongst equals, not superior (probably natural for a DA player, right? ).

Personally wouldn't have included Angron in the top 5. Unless you're talking just combat. Guillimans rounds out my top 5.

I think it's the top 5 as far as martial prowess/how dangerous they are in combat. In that way Angron makes way more sense, because he's clearly not a well-rounded leader. But let's not make this into a primarch ranking thread.. those have a nasty habit of getting closed

[Black_out]

I believe Sanguinius on the tabletop will probably be the closest thing to a loyalist Horus we'll see and that he may end up at a slightly higher cost due to his better maneuverability from his wings.

 

At least this is what I hope, I've NEVER had any intentions of ever making a BA army but with the option to field The Angel himself, I may not be able to resist...plus their upgrade kits are dopeee

[Raktra]

@Rakta: You mean in the duel that Russ had in order to try and fail to teach Angron a lesson. 

Yea, thats a good measure of Russ's abilities *sarcasm*

 

That's it. The one he lost horribly.

 

If you're gonna be snide, at least spell my name right.

[Corswain]

 

That'll still be nearly half with swords when the're all released.

Maybe my issue has more to do with "x Primarch is the besterest swordsman ever". Fulgrim, Sanguinius, The Khan, The Lion.

Give them different weapons and you can break it up a bit.

 

 

I honestly agree. Variety is definitely more interesting. 

 

@Rakta: You mean in the duel that Russ had in order to try and fail to teach Angron a lesson. 

Yea, thats a good measure of Russ's abilities *sarcasm*

 

 

Let's remember that when Horus kills Sanguinius, Sanguinius had only landed one blow on Horus and Horus chose to use his bare hands to kill SAnguinius. 

Im not saying Sanguinius is crap, I think he should be in the top 5 (Horus, Angron, Sanguinius, Russ and the Lion) but him equaling Horus pre or post chaos is unlikely in my opinion.

 

WLK

 

 

That's a pretty solid top 5. It also makes a lot of sense for Sanguinius, Russ and the Lion to all be quite expensive and powerful. Remember that for game balance, these guys aren't far from having to contend with things on the board like Daemon Angron and Daemon Fulgrim... 

 

I think that top group should be pretty tight. Always seen Horus as the first amongst equals, not superior (probably natural for a DA player, right? ;) ).

Personally wouldn't have included Angron in the top 5. Unless you're talking just combat. Guillimans rounds out my top 5.

 

 

I think it's the top 5 as far as martial prowess/how dangerous they are in combat. In that way Angron makes way more sense, because he's clearly not a well-rounded leader. But let's not make this into a primarch ranking thread.. those have a nasty habit of getting closed

Thats literally the thread title. ;) You're right though!

He's definitely gotta be up there for combat and points. I think he has to have some interesting army buffs but i gotta come back to the loss of effectiveness when losing troops. Thats his balance I think, to stop him being OP.

[1ncarnadine]

Thats literally the thread title. You're right though!

He's definitely gotta be up there for combat and points. I think he has to have some interesting army buffs but i gotta come back to the loss of effectiveness when losing troops. Thats his balance I think, to stop him being OP.

True enough :P

I really like the idea of a mechanic where something happens when he loses friendly units near him. I haven't read Fear to Tread though, my impressions of Sanguinius are mostly from what other Primarchs have said about him in different novels. Does losing his sons hurt him, make him mad, both?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Horus was by that point a god fuelled by the powers of chaos, and Sanguinius had been fighting for days without rest on Terra. Hardly a fair contest, and that's coming from a massive Horus fan who isn't fond of Sanguinius in the slightest.

I don't think he should be as good a Primarch v Primarch fighter as Horus is, but I'd expect him to be very close pre-Chaos. The Talon of Horus pretty much makes Horus the ultimate Primarch v Primarch brawler, as it should be - he is the most dangerous Primarch, see the introduction to Conquest. Post-Chaos, nobody comes close to Horus except the big E.

a fair fight?

If you're fighting a fair fight you've already committed mistakes.

that said, Horus is the best and brightest. Thats no slight on the rest of the lot, but they aint Horus. He's the Emperor's favored for a reason.

I want Sanguinius to be a beast. He should make just about every opponent question their life choices. But not Horus.

I think that top group should be pretty tight. Always seen Horus as the first amongst equals, not superior (probably natural for a DA player, right? ).

Personally wouldn't have included Angron in the top 5. Unless you're talking just combat. Guillimans rounds out my top 5.

I was talking just hand to hand combat.

the thing is about Horus, is that he is not just a Primarch raised above his genetic brothers. He is the Brightest Star. He is the favored creation of a being thats lived for untold amount of years and has a large selection of monsters to choose from.

Horus was the best of the Primarchs. He had all the combined skills required to follow a being like the Emperor in command. I think his fall was poorly handed by the Black Library, and felt very rushed.

I doubt any single primarch could have dropped Horus by skill alone.

WLK

[Corswain]

Arguably both. Fear to Tread is the only thing we've got combat-wise on Sanguinius from the Black Library (as far as I know, anyway) and it wasnt a great showing in my opinion. Id like to see him get a little more face time before FW does him.

[Lunar Centurion]

Yeah, they should do another BA book. Maybe an actual heresy battle? And have Sanguinius fight another Primarch, maybe Perturabo? That would be really sweet. And he didn't have some weird spear. He had his sword, which also had barbs... so yeah... a spiky sword. (In head) Spikes=Chaos=Heresy=BLAM

I finally got a hot topic

[Marshal Loss]

 

Horus was by that point a god fuelled by the powers of chaos, and Sanguinius had been fighting for days without rest on Terra. Hardly a fair contest, and that's coming from a massive Horus fan who isn't fond of Sanguinius in the slightest.

 

I don't think he should be as good a Primarch v Primarch fighter as Horus is, but I'd expect him to be very close pre-Chaos. The Talon of Horus pretty much makes Horus the ultimate Primarch v Primarch brawler, as it should be - he is the most dangerous Primarch, see the introduction to Conquest. Post-Chaos, nobody comes close to Horus except the big E.

 

a fair fight? 

If you're fighting a fair fight you've already committed mistakes.

 

 

That has absolutely no relevance.

 

The rules are meant to represent the Primarchs at their full strength at that point in the timeline where they are depicted. My point is that quoting Sanguinius v. Horus on the Vengeful Spirit as an indicator of their respective strengths is misleading when we're talking about their pre-Terra abilities. I agree with your points, just not that reference.

 

Horus is obviously going to be a stronger Primarch v Primarch fighter than Sanguinius, as I said, but I maintain that the margin should be slender prior to his Chaos boost.

[Brother Heinrich]

Thats literally the thread title. You're right though!

He's definitely gotta be up there for combat and points. I think he has to have some interesting army buffs but i gotta come back to the loss of effectiveness when losing troops. Thats his balance I think, to stop him being OP.

True enough

I really like the idea of a mechanic where something happens when he loses friendly units near him. I haven't read Fear to Tread though, my impressions of Sanguinius are mostly from what other Primarchs have said about him in different novels. Does losing his sons hurt him, make him mad, both?

In Fear to Tread an entire company of his sons was killed instantaneously right around him and it pretty much knocked him unconscious. I think on a psychological level the loss of his sons hurts him, with lesser losses fueling his pain and rage, and severe losses (like on Signus) temporarily crippling him. We'll see though if this makes it into his rules. Would be an interesting limiting dynamic on him.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Horus was by that point a god fuelled by the powers of chaos, and Sanguinius had been fighting for days without rest on Terra. Hardly a fair contest, and that's coming from a massive Horus fan who isn't fond of Sanguinius in the slightest.

 

I don't think he should be as good a Primarch v Primarch fighter as Horus is, but I'd expect him to be very close pre-Chaos. The Talon of Horus pretty much makes Horus the ultimate Primarch v Primarch brawler, as it should be - he is the most dangerous Primarch, see the introduction to Conquest. Post-Chaos, nobody comes close to Horus except the big E.

 

a fair fight? 

If you're fighting a fair fight you've already committed mistakes.

 

 

That has absolutely no relevance.

 

The rules are meant to represent the Primarchs at their full strength at that point in the timeline where they are depicted. My point is that quoting Sanguinius v. Horus on the Vengeful Spirit as an indicator of their respective strengths is misleading when we're talking about their pre-Terra abilities. I agree with your points, just not that reference.

 

Horus is obviously going to be a stronger Primarch v Primarch fighter than Sanguinius, as I said, but I maintain that the margin should be slender prior to his Chaos boost.

 

 

That part/reference was pretty much a joke. 

 

WLK

[b1soul]

@Rakta: You mean in the duel that Russ had in order to try and fail to teach Angron a lesson. 

Yea, thats a good measure of Russ's abilities *sarcasm* 

WLK

Yes...because getting the crap beaten out of him in front of his men somehow helped Angron to learn the lesson *sarcasm*

 

Angron thought he didn't need his men because he had Russ crawling away from him. Had Russ humbled Angron in their duel AND pointed out that Angron's men were nowhere near to aid him, Russ would've made his point with more force...and Angron would've had nothing to fall back on.

[Dantay VI]

And back to Space Wolves bashing again, we get it Space Wolves are the least popular legion.... B1soul, stay on topic please!!

 

Sanguinius should be a top tier Primarch killer, maybe not the strongest, but certainy one of the quickest initiative wise. Maybe some sort of thunderous strike rule vs monstrous creatures?

[Corswain]

I don't know if he needs to be that quick. There's been nothing to say he's faster than the "average" primarch. He's got wings but that doesn't mean he swings a sword (or spear ;) ) any faster than another primarch.

I think the wings will give him some cool abilites, huge movements, deep stike but I don't think that means high initiative.

 

On the other hand, he mighht be a bit of a glass cannon. Hits first and hits hard but gets knocked around pretty hard too.

[b1soul]

And back to Space Wolves bashing again, we get it Space Wolves are the least popular legion.... B1soul, stay on topic please!!

 

Sanguinius should be a top tier Primarch killer, maybe not the strongest, but certainy one of the quickest initiative wise. Maybe some sort of thunderous strike rule vs monstrous creatures?

I am directly responding to someone else's post in this thread...and nothing I've said could accurately be described as "Space Wolf bashing". Easy with the false accusations please.

[drooling blood]

What do we know for sure?

Pre ascendant Horus was worried about facing him and taking his jerb. Ka'Banda couldn't stop him.

Most traitors thought only daemon Angron could best him, and he failed.

So there's your yard stick. Better than Angron in hth, Probably some inspiration buffs for the troops, could work both ways.

There wont be much he can't stomp into the dirt, including a pre ascendant Horus.

I suspect he will be like Obi wun, and give up, rsther than suffer the rage.

Whats Horus done anyway? Not much.

[Corswain]

Depends where we get our facts from. Old fluff? New fluff (Black Library)?

 

Old fluff had Ka'Banda breaking his back at Signus from memory, new has a bit of a cop-out, crowd pleasing angle so Sanguinius loses but not because he loses.

 

(Just My opinion, this is a BA thread really and I'm not here to upset anyone. I liked Fear to Tread as a whole but that bit was terrible. I like my greater demons to be a threat and i liked the old story arch better)

 

I dont think Angron and he ever fought, did they? It was just a wierd stare off. And if we're going by new fluff, it hasn't been written yet.

 

He's been in one novel worth mentioning so far in the new stuff so I dont think we have a yard stick yet.

[Lunar Centurion]

I'm pretty sure Angron fought Sanguinius, but Sanguinius won, but I may be wrong. I know they at least met on the walls of the Palace, and Sanguinius left, I'm not sure if they fought. I think they did though.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The sooner James Swallow loses creative direction of the Blood Angels,, the better.

[Lunar Centurion]

Yeah. Dan Abnett maybe? His stuff is pretty good.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Abnettverse? No ta. His Marines are flimsy. Know No Fear was alright, I suppose, but his previous outings with Astartes has then incredibly fragile. Scared of dropping the book in case a company of marines died. (Brothers of the Snake, Iron Warriors in the Tanith Books... etc).

[Raktra]

It has always bothered me that BL Terminators seem to drop like flies to things like bolt pistols or knives...

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus was by that point a god fuelled by the powers of chaos, and Sanguinius had been fighting for days without rest on Terra. Hardly a fair contest, and that's coming from a massive Horus fan who isn't fond of Sanguinius in the slightest.

I don't think he should be as good a Primarch v Primarch fighter as Horus is, but I'd expect him to be very close pre-Chaos. The Talon of Horus pretty much makes Horus the ultimate Primarch v Primarch brawler, as it should be - he is the most dangerous Primarch, see the introduction to Conquest. Post-Chaos, nobody comes close to Horus except the big E.

a fair fight?

If you're fighting a fair fight you've already committed mistakes.

that said, Horus is the best and brightest. Thats no slight on the rest of the lot, but they aint Horus. He's the Emperor's favored for a reason.

I want Sanguinius to be a beast. He should make just about every opponent question their life choices. But not Horus.

I think that top group should be pretty tight. Always seen Horus as the first amongst equals, not superior (probably natural for a DA player, right? ).

Personally wouldn't have included Angron in the top 5. Unless you're talking just combat. Guillimans rounds out my top 5.

I was talking just hand to hand combat.

the thing is about Horus, is that he is not just a Primarch raised above his genetic brothers. He is the Brightest Star. He is the favored creation of a being thats lived for untold amount of years and has a large selection of monsters to choose from.

Horus was the best of the Primarchs. He had all the combined skills required to follow a being like the Emperor in command. I think his fall was poorly handed by the Black Library, and felt very rushed.

I doubt any single primarch could have dropped Horus by skill alone.

WLK

Your point about Horus made me chuckle because it's just so damn true. It's like professional athletes. They are all amazing. But sometimes there is just that one guy that takes the cake.

Horus definitely had 'first born' syndrome. He's the hands down most qualified and experienced, but when his younger brothers turn out to be successful it drives him to prove himself more. He loves his brothers, but he's going to make sure he stays Primus inter pares in the Emperor's eyes.

I can see why his fall, if it had been better explained, made perfect sense. The emperor didn't even choose another Primarch to run the Imperium. He made Horus a general and let bureaucrats and mortals into the rulers.

WLK sometimes it's like you can read my mind :P

[Brother Heinrich]

Just the simple fact that Horus himself says, "It should have been Sanguinius" is enough of a indicator what his status amongst the rest of the Primarchs should be. I know that this could refer to a combination of leadership and prowess, but still, Sanguinius is up there.

 

As for the update to his fight with Ka'Banda, I feel like defeating the greater demon with broken legs is a little more plausible than doing so with a broken back. He does have to survive the encounter after all, and greater demons aren't known for crippling folks and then just leaving them in the care of a couple apothecaries so they can come back for round two.

 

Regardless as far as tabletop rules go:

• His combat ability should be be damn close to Horus, but minus the crippling abilities of the Talon.

• He should have hit and run and jump rules at a minimum.

• His pistol should have armourbane to reflect that it's a one-of-a-kind primarch weapon. 

• His sword should be AP2 and maybe add +1str like a bigass paragon blade 

• He should have murderous strike, with possibly a buff since he is killing Monstrous Creatures like it's cool during the heresy. (Killed two greater demons on Signus alone, and many more on the walls of Terra)

• Armor should probably be 2+/4++

• Would like to see a rule harming his stats if Blood Angel units are destroyed within say 12"-24" of him

• Bonus to seize the initiative or redeployment of units to reflect precognition

• Potentially give bonuses to assault/jump pack/flyer units

[Lunar Centurion]

I agree with Heinrich here, and maybe also some good command traits. Like a DS accuracy boost, and instead of stat harm, maybe more of he has to attack the unit killing the most Blood Angels, so you lose control.