Heresy Questions

[Captain Idaho]

I'm almost caught - hook, line and sinker! However, I have questions that I would like explained before I sink cash I don't have on this.

 

1) What's the deal with army lists? Are they central or in specific books? I'm an Ultramarines fan so will I have a list for them in Tempest?

 

2) is there a centralised ruleset? Which book?

 

3) are new units rules spread in books or come with the purchase.

 

Convince me, people. I WANT to be convinced so it won't be that hard. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

1) Localized standard lists in the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army Red Book.

 

2)new generic units are drip fed, for instance the leviathan and 3 new consuls will be in retaliation.

 

3)spread in books to come

 

The red books will be updated like Codexes IIRC, so if you don't want the Signus book, for example, just wait for the next round of red book updates. The red book has most everything you will need anyway. Tempest will be your big book of choice for Ultras special units and characters.

 

Join the crew.

[Noserenda]

More specifically the "Codex" is http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Crusade-Army-List with each new big book adding recent additions to the FW line as they go on.

Equally the Legions are spread over each big book, then compiled into the aboves companion volume. Because the Ultras are fairly new they are still only in Tempest :) 

[Kriegriss]

are you THE captain Idaho that inspired so much honour guard awsomeness in a previous 40k life

[Fire Golem]

For Ultramarines, you'd have the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List book, which has the Astartes list that all legions use in it, and then Tempest has the Ultramarines specific rules, units and characters.

[Captain Idaho]

are you THE captain Idaho that inspired so much honour guard awsomeness in a previous 40k life

I am. Totally into my Honour Guard.

 

Need to get back into gaming after my personal life had taken over.

 

They'll be plenty of Ultramarines 30K Honour Guard equivalent too!

[Lunar Centurion]

For Ultras you'll need the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List (Also known as the LACAL), and Tempest. The LACAL has generic units, and Tempest has the Calth campaign and Ultras units. Also, it's got Word Bearers and the Militia/Cults list.

[Ishagu]

Idaho, welcome to the 30k forum!

 

If you're after Ultramarines there will be two books you need.

The first is the "Legion Crusade Army book" - this has all the various generic unit choices, vehicles and so on.

 

The second is "Horus Heresy book V: Tempest" - this has the Ultramarines legion rules, unique characters and units.

 

 

Before you purchase the books, you can have a play around on battlescribe and see if you can build a general list to your liking :-)

 

I'm aware you like Honour Guard. In 30k there's is a better version of them exclusive to the Ultramarines - the Invectarus Suzerains, who usually accompanied Roboute Guilliman as his bodyguards. You can actually take them as troops if you include the Primarch in your force too. They have Artifacer Armour, ap2 power weapons that strike at normal initiative and invul saves :-)

Btw, Guilliman also unlocks Terminators as troops.

 

I would be very happy to share some pointers with you in regards to how 30k list building is different from 40k. One of the big differences is that you can't spam MSU, instead units get cheaper the bigger they get. For example, in a tac squad the first 10 Marines cost 15 points each, but any you add after that are only 10 points each. There are similar discounts in other places, however running full strength units is also a drain on points. It's up to you to decide how to get the most out of an army.

 

Basic vehicles like the Auto Cannon Predator are superior in 30k, as the Auto Cannon fires 4 times instead of two.

Vindicators can take a Machine Spirit Upgrade so they can still fire after moving 12" or have been shaken by enemy attacks.

Landraiders can take Armour upgrades that negate the Melta bonus, and there are other differences too.

 

If I were you, I'd play around with battlescribe initially using the Age of Darkness army list. Pick the Ultramarines legion and see what kind of force you'd like to put together!

 

To put your mind at ease, it won't be hard to assemble a 30k army. The imminent boxset basically means you only need to make a few FW purchases to spice up a force and you'd be ready to go. Rhinos, Preds, Vindicators and Landraiders can be pulled straight from your 40k force.

[Frater Cornelius]

The system is pretty simple. All Legions are based on the generic ruleset of the aforementioned LACAL. This is how a generic list would work, including the generic Rites of War.

 

With the generic part covered you can now specialize and use the rules of a specific Legion. This adds a few Legion-specific rules to the generic army list. Much akin to Chapter Tactics. You also get specific Wargear, Relics and named characters and of cause your Primarch, Rowboat Girlyman.

 

You still use the LACAL to build army but now you supplemented it with the Ultramarine rules, which are in book 5. I would advice agsinst getting it. It is expensive and all you need are a few pages that are for the UM. Find a scanned version or ask someone who owns the book to photocopy the UM pages.

If you are a fluff junky, you can get it at some later point. In the beginning the model cost will be pretty high.

[Legatus]

If you have the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines then you can safely skip Tempest. The changes to their description are dreadfull. All the good stuff is from 2nd Edition, but somehow FW attempted to screw them over in any way they could, while paying lip service to their former glory. The Legion rules are not all that stellar either, and the Legion arguably is more adequately represented by using the generic Legion list with the 'Glory of the Legion' Rite of Battle.

 

You'll miss the Ultramarines "Special Units" (ugh), but they are against the lore anyways. (Because for some reason none of them made it into the Codex Astartes...) You'll probably miss the rules for Guilliman, but for this one thing the price of the book might be a bit much.

[Ishagu]

I'm not incredibly fond of how they are portrayed in a few parts (as a Legion that achieved success mainly because of numerical superiority) but the Legion Rules are solid, and the unique units are some of the best in the Heresy. Guilliman is a fantastic Primarch for his cost, too.

[Lunar Centurion]

Wow. That's one loooong rant about Tempest. From what I've heard, 30k Ultras are actually quite good, but they are kind of jack of all trades, master of none, so they may have problems facing a spam list. But it's reaaaaally expensive, so you may want to wait on it, unless you're deadset on using special units.

[Captain Idaho]

Eh how can I NOT get Tempest lol.

 

I have means of getting rules where needed brothers.

 

What is the usual points value people play?

[Olis]

Give or take, 2000 points seems to be the popular ballpark.

[Ishagu]

2000 points for me, for some it seems 2.5k.

The game has restrictions so you can only take a LoW at 2k points or more, and only if it's 25% or less of your total points.

[Legatus]

The main "additions" to the Legion history from Tempest are:

 

- The Legion grew as big as it did mainly because their gene-seed was much easier and faster to produce than that of the other Legions.

 

- The main doctrinal aspect of the Legion was numerical superiority, which they employed whenever possible, and which their rules are based on. The only provided exemplary Battle of the Legion is a battle where they completely swarmed the technologically superior enemy and drowned them in a mass of bodies.

 

- The Legion copied a lot of their tactical and doctrinal principles from the other Legions, but attempting to refine and improve on those tactics and doctrines where possible.

 

- It is pointed out that the Legion liberated the most worlds, but only according to some of the official records.

 

- The Legion relied largely on cheaper, faster to produce material.

[Marshal Rohr]

All three special units were included in the Codex Astartes. Honor Guard-Invictarus, Terminators with Siege Weaponry-cyclone missile terminators, and and locutarus assault squads - vanguard squads, which I guess are new, so just veteran squads with CCWs.

[Legatus]

All three special units were included in the Codex Astartes. Honor Guard-Invictarus

 

The two units are obviously related. But when writing the Codex Guilliman apparently felt that default boarding shields (or boarding shields at all, period) were not such a good element, and dropped them.

 

 

Terminators with Siege Weaponry-cyclone missile terminators

 

You cannot get "Devastator" Terminators where every model is equipped with a heavy weapon in the Codex Space Marines.

 

 

and locutarus assault squads - vanguard squads

 

Unfortunately they are no longer provided with artificer armour (a shame). Vanguard Veterans also do not carry power swords as their default equipment, though you can equip them that way optionally. The 'Locutarus Storm Squads' also employ some differing tactics ('Opening Salvo' and 'Precision Intervention') from the Vanguard Veteran squads, which Guilliman did not feel to carry over into the Codex.

All of this provided that one accepted Vanguard Veterans as a "Codex" unit in the first place.

 

 

Another reason why the basic Legion army list with 'Pride of the Legion' is a better representation of the Ultramarines Legion is that it allows you to use Veteran squads as Troops, and 'Legion Veteran Squads' are closer to the later 'Codex Tactical Squads' than the 'Legion Tactical Squads' are. Legion Veterans are a unit of 5-10 models which can have one special or heavy weapon per 5 men. Legion Tacticals are a unit of 10-20 men with no specials or heavy weaposn at all.

So a 'Tempest' Ultramarines army would use those larger Legion Tactial squads as troops and have access to fancy un-Codex "special units", while a 'Pride of the Legion' Ultramarines army would use the Legion Veteran (similar to Codex Tactical) squads as Troops and not bother with fancy units never heard from after the introduction of the Codex Astartes.

[Fire Golem]

He didn't finish the codex until after the heresy so there could be all kinds of reasons for the differences between the units the UM used before the heresy and the ones that made it into the finished Codex Astartes.

[Ishagu]

The Vanguard not being equipped with Artifacer Armour could simply be a result of it's rarity as the years after the Heresy passed.

From Tempest I get the impression the Ultras were still incredibly Tactical, disciplined and professional.

[Marshal Rohr]

Boarding shields were not dropped as a bad idea. When he wrote the codex he left them in as equipment used for boarding actions, and an upgraded siege mantlet for the siege assault vanguard formations. He just recognized having whole companies dedicated to using them went counter to his intended goal of a very small, precision strike force as the new chapters were meant to be. Guillimans reforms were not creating space marine chapters to be better. They were created to force them into a new role that hadn't previous performed.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

All three special units were included in the Codex Astartes. Honor Guard-Invictarus

The two units are obviously related. But when writing the Codex Guilliman apparently felt that default boarding shields (or boarding shields at all, period) were not such a good element, and dropped them.

 

Terminators with Siege Weaponry-cyclone missile terminators

You cannot get "Devastator" Terminators where every model is equipped with a heavy weapon in the Codex Space Marines.

 

and locutarus assault squads - vanguard squads

Unfortunately they are no longer provided with artificer armour (a shame). Vanguard Veterans also do not carry power swords as their default equipment, though you can equip them that way optionally. The 'Locutarus Storm Squads' also employ some differing tactics ('Opening Salvo' and 'Precision Intervention') from the Vanguard Veteran squads, which Guilliman did not feel to carry over into the Codex.

All of this provided that one accepted Vanguard Veterans as a "Codex" unit in the first place.

 

 

Another reason why the basic Legion army list with 'Pride of the Legion' is a better representation of the Ultramarines Legion is that it allows you to use Veteran squads as Troops, and 'Legion Veteran Squads' are closer to the later 'Codex Tactical Squads' than the 'Legion Tactical Squads' are. Legion Veterans are a unit of 5-10 models which can have one special or heavy weapon per 5 men. Legion Tacticals are a unit of 10-20 men with no specials or heavy weaposn at all.

So a 'Tempest' Ultramarines army would use those larger Legion Tactial squads as troops and have access to fancy un-Codex "special units", while a 'Pride of the Legion' Ultramarines army would use the Legion Veteran (similar to Codex Tactical) squads as Troops and not bother with fancy units never heard from after the introduction of the Codex Astartes.

You're making some many errors it's hard to correct all of them. First, if you're gonna play in the 30K sand box, you play by 30K rules. Anything written about the codex hasn't happened yet, so you're categorically wrong to say well these things had no place later.

[Ishagu]

Let's not bash each other or the lore too much.

Getting away from the portrayal of the Ultras, they are a very fun and interesting force in 30k to play!

 

That's the appeal - you can make a more unique Ultramarine force in the HH ruleset than you can in regular 40k. Unique rules, units and characters.

 

Also... Considering Roboute Guilliman is only 115 points more than Calgar he seems like a steal!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Legatus; Guilliman broke down the Legiones Astartes from their nominal Expedition Fleets, which in their most part were Self sufficient divisions of larger military contingents; under the command of Astartes, there were hundreds of thousands of Imperial Army and Solar Auxilia pattern Regiments.

 

Now, unless under dire circumstances, (Badab War, Armageddon, Battle for Macragge), general command of these 30k equivalents in 40k, such as the Imperial Navy and Astra Militarum, are under their own initiative; often, a Guard officer will defer local command to an Astartes due to knowledge and ability, but rarely making it a legislative appointment, instead being adhoc, unless in circumstances listed above.

 

The damage done during the Heresy had the Legiones removed and hamstrung on purpose. They had more limited materiel, and manpower in the basic "Chapter" denomination was cut to a tenth of what they were, and replenishment of marines was now limited to certain recruitment worlds only. Attrition based tactics, such as Shieldwall Breachers became near obsolete as they lacked the support numbers and operational scope.

 

Combined with the creation of more advanced weaponry in the latter days of the Crusade; such as Vigil pattern storm shields means that they are now reserved for more elite units.

 

Dedicated Formations of 'Devastator' Terminators were arguably too specialised and inflexible enough, as well as lacking supplies AND being too effective, which led to them being folded into generic roles of shooty and assault marines.

[Lord Blackwood]

Wasant there a super long thread about how much Legatus hated the changes in  Tempest  a while back? 

It really is irrelevant to  Cpt Idaho's questions aint it ? 


I played against a very nifty Ultramarine force yesterday in the annual hollows end throw down and if not for sigismund being quite possibly the most dangerous thing on the table top short of a primarch  I  prolly woulda lost , was fun ,  though I  wouldnt recommend the ultramarine specific rite of war it forces you to roll dude heavy D:  like Tac dudes which is kinda bad when the name of the game is dealing with infantry 

I think you will like 30k though if you like honor guard Spartan Assault Tank Based Deathstars with a big bad with his own honor guard of  dudes is usually a common sight!