Torn between 3 legions

[Deekthegreat]

Ok so i have the red book bundle from forgeworld on its way. But im torn betweek salamanders iron hands and imperial fists. Im mainly trying to understand what are the pros and consfor these 3 armies and as i kinda understand it all of them benefit greatly from mass spartan spam.

 

Wont lie the only person i will be playing 30k with is a mechanicum player and hes really just picked up all the op stuff from what i can tell ive never seen rules for any of this stuff so i cant really pass judgement on op and not op.

 

I will be picking up the 5th book tempest soon i hope being jobless sucks. So as said before pros and cons for all 3 and how each would combat the mechanicum would help greatly. Thank you in advance

[Frater Cornelius]

Don't pick up Tempest. Get a scanned copy or ask someone who has it. Saves you a lot of cash, especially if money is tight. PM me about that, if you wish.

 

Well, given how Mechanicum is usually low model count but very good toughness and has a multitude of tools to rip MEQ apart, IF do not really have anything to counter Mechanicum directly, unless you are taking HB Vets, which are kind of pricey. Salamanders would need to get close to unfold their potential with Flamers, which plays into the Hands of Mechanicum, who are rather slow and short-ranged with their guns.

 

My pick would be the Iron Hands with a defensive, long-ranged list. Their -1S trait helps with Plasma Fussils and Mauler Bolt Cannons, both of which are designed to mince MEQ, which can be your saving grace in the end.

[Slips]

Well, I can't say I dont have a Bias so take this with a grain of salt :p

 

First, off, Spartan Spam as a Tactic to build your army around may not be the best idea for someone getting into 30k because its very One-Dimensional least of all because each Spartan will set you back ~365 Points each and, unless taken as a dedicated transport, a VERY Competitive Heavy Support Slot.

 

Second, due to Spartans being available to every legion and every legion having some form of CC beast unit (in one form or another) any and all can reasonably be expected to make the Tactic work. The only Legion that Truly edges out above the rest is the Iron Hands using Ferrus and Head of the Gorgon RoW since the Tank gains free Blessed Autosimulacra and IWND...both of which Stack.

 

Third, telling us what your Mechanicum-Bro will be playing could help us put you on the right track to making sure you can Mitigate being drowned in 5+ 5" S8 Ap2 Thanatar Templates.

[Ishagu]

Tempest is all about the Ultras and Word bearers, so I wouldn't get that if your main interest is Imperial Fists, Iron Hands or Salamanders.

 

I would pick Iron Hands personally.

[Deekthegreat]

Not sure how to post pics but he has 2 of the really bug guys im assuming 6 of the medium sized guys the hq who has a little possie to come along with him amd again assuming its a techpriest one of them. And a squad or 2 of thallax.

I was gonna get it for the updated rules so i know exactly whats going on

[Deekthegreat]

I have a heavy fluff interest in the 2 armies in tempest but i play ultras in 40k so yea

[Remus Ventanus.]

Don't pick up Tempest. Get a scanned copy or ask someone who has it. Saves you a lot of cash, especially if money is tight. PM me about that, if you wish.

 

Well, given how Mechanicum is usually low model count but very good toughness and has a multitude of tools to rip MEQ apart, IF do not really have anything to counter Mechanicum directly, unless you are taking HB Vets, which are kind of pricey. Salamanders would need to get close to unfold their potential with Flamers, which plays into the Hands of Mechanicum, who are rather slow and short-ranged with their guns.

 

My pick would be the Iron Hands with a defensive, long-ranged list. Their -1S trait helps with Plasma Fussils and Mauler Bolt Cannons, both of which are designed to mince MEQ, which can be your saving grace in the end.

I dont think encouraging pirating is the proper thing to do

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Don't pick up Tempest. Get a scanned copy or ask someone who has it. Saves you a lot of cash, especially if money is tight. PM me about that, if you wish.

 

Well, given how Mechanicum is usually low model count but very good toughness and has a multitude of tools to rip MEQ apart, IF do not really have anything to counter Mechanicum directly, unless you are taking HB Vets, which are kind of pricey. Salamanders would need to get close to unfold their potential with Flamers, which plays into the Hands of Mechanicum, who are rather slow and short-ranged with their guns.

 

My pick would be the Iron Hands with a defensive, long-ranged list. Their -1S trait helps with Plasma Fussils and Mauler Bolt Cannons, both of which are designed to mince MEQ, which can be your saving grace in the end.

I dont think encouraging pirating is the proper thing to do

 

 

No, it certainly isn't, I agree. But at the same time I will not advice someone to get an overpriced book, especially if that person has no income at the present time. I will help, where ever I can. Hence I am telling people to contact me, so they do not need to take the risk themselves.

[Slips]

The thing is, the Books are right proper expensive, no two ways about it.

 

Unless you're 100% Locked into a Legion, buying a giant tome that may not have what you want inside might not be the best use of your $$ , especially if you're just getting into 30k.

 

However, a Much-less-illegal way of getting a taste of whats inside the 30k Books would be to read the rather informative 1d4chan Article, found here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k)

 

In the end, we can't dictate how a person acquires their materiel and we can't really bash anyone for doing so, so long as they support FW in some way later down the line, like buying the next book, s'all good to me. 

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Hi there and welcome to the 31st Millenium.

In order for you to choose the best Legion, the Salamanders, I shall present to you my favourite things about them! (Disclaimer: I may be biased)

1) The only Legion that doesn't have overly dickish tendencies

2) Focus on short range firepower, resilience and HAMMERS

3) Not 'unpopular' but certainly uncommon, you will see a dozen threads about IF & IH for every Salamander thread

4) Artificer as all . They have sweet wargear for resilience and heat-based death.

5) One of the best Legion Terminator elite - Firedrakes.

6) Vulkan is sort of Space Jesus

7) Sweet green colour scheme, replete with flames, gold bling & dragons

8) Not filthy treacherous traitors

Cons:

1) Real gangsters don't run fast. They're slow to traverse the board and desperately need transports.

Well that's a few reasons why I play Salamanders. Fists are very cool, sharing the determination of duty the Salamanders have; but to a dogmatically annoying (to me, ofc) degree. Iron Hands I am warming to, they have some seriously excellent models AND rules. I just find that fluffwise they're one dimensional with regard to basically being emo little crybitches about their Primarch. Raaah I'm so mad and hate everyone. That said, Shadrak Meduson has thawed my dislike of them to dull embers. He's given them a less one dimensional personality to me.

Whichever you choose, you'll have a blast!

(All of the above is my personal opinion!)

[Frater Cornelius]

I agree with the Potato. Salamanders are definitely the most 'bro-tier' Legion. Well, if you like feral that is. All those drake scales, you see :P

[Deekthegreat]

i do intend on making a purchase in the future of one of the many tomes that forgeworld has available.  as i said i do have a fluff love for noth legions in tempest and i'm going to assume it has the most recent rules to get into 30k with,  as i'm new to the world of 30k and am trying to find out the rules and stuff i appreciate any help i can get.  people have just told me to purchase the red books and i did but i'm not sure if those have all the rules i would need to play and when i do play i want to know i'm in a good understanding of the rules.  

[Ishagu]

If you have the two red books those have all the rules you need to play.

 

Additional rules for units like the Deredeo, Xiphon and Vindicator Laser Destroyer can be downloaded on the FW website.

[Deekthegreat]

ok well for now that just saved me 130 bucks US for buying one big thick book that would probably never even leave my house glad i didnt grab that when i grabbed the 2 books.   as for anti mechanicum if i could post the pic of the units he has i would but it adds up to 1750 from what hes told me.

[Brother Heinrich]

Yuck mechanicum.

 

As for the legions I like Salamanders. Made this list for fun the other day and it makes me happy:

 

HQ:

• Forge Lord - Artificer Armor, Refractor Field, Cyber Familiar, Dragonscale Shield, Rad Grenades, Thunder Hammer - 155pts

 

Troops:

• 10x Tactical Marines - Sgt w/Powerfist, Vexila, Landraider Proteus - 375pts

• 10x Tactical Marines - Sgt w/Powerfist, Vexila, Landraider Proteus - 375pts

 

Elites:

• Firedrake Terminators - 5x Firedrakes, Sgt w/MC Thunder Hammer (lol) & Dragonscale Shield, 4x Powerfists, 4x Dragonscale Shields, Spartan Assault Tank w/Armored Ceramite - 650pts

• Contemptor Dreadnought Talon - 2x Contemptors w/Single Multi-Melta - 350pts

 

Heavy Support:

• Sicaran Battle Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 175pts

 

Lord of War:

• Vulkan - 425pts (Armored Assault ROW)

 

Total: 2500

[Legatus]

These are the general specs. I don't have much experience with the overall 30K system or with the Mechanicul in particular, so take my assessment with some reservation.

 

- Imperial Fists - < VII >

 

Advantages:

• +1 BS for all "Bolter" weaponry
• Heavy Support squads gain 'Tank Hunter'
• Characters in challenges can re-roll To-Hit rolls
• Models are stubborn when in cover/fortification

Disadvantages:

• Characters must issue a challenge if possible
• In random length games, the opponent can decide that the full six truns are played

Special formation/Rite of War:

• 'Phalanx Warder Squads' are Troops, all models with shields that are in btb with two friendly models with shields gain +1 Toughness (unless they just ran, charged or made a sweeping advance), charging models with shields gain the 'Hammer of Wrath' special rule.
• Must take Breacher Squads as compulsory Troops choices, force cannot use Deep Strike rules, cannot use more Elites and Fast Attack choices than Troops choices

Special units:

• Templar Brethren: Decent HtH Veterans with WS 5, 2+ sv and 'Furious Charge'.
• Phalanx Warder Squad: Almost identical to regular Breacher Squads, but gain +1 Initiative when charged, as long as at least 5 models remain.

 

 

- Iron Hands - < X >

 

Advantages:

• Enemy shooting against IH models is reduced by -1 Strength

Disadvantages:

• Must pass Ld Test to sweeping advance or to run
• May not voluntarily go to ground
• Army may not have more total 'Jump Infantry', 'Bike' or 'Jetbike' units than 'Infantry' units.

Special formation/Rite of War:

• 'Infantry' units within own deployment zone are 'Stubborn', 'Infantry' models with Flamers can exchange them for Graviton guns, Battle-Automata can be chosen as Elite choices, units that are permitted to get a Rhino can get a Land Raider Proteus or Phobos instead, Tanks in reserve gain 'Outflank'
• Can only take a single Fast Attack choice, can not take Space Marine allies

Special units:

• Iron-Father: Praetor with a Servo-Arm.
• Gorgon Terminator Squad: Similar to regular Terminators, but with 5+ FnP. When passing a save, nearby units can be blinded by their conversion field technology. 
• Medusan Immortal Squad: Similar to Breacher Squads, but with 6+ FnP, optional Volkite Charger for every model, optional CCWs instead of Boltguns, instead of making a sweeping advance the unit (upon passing theri Ld Test) can decide to make a snap shot attack against a fleeing unit instead of pursuing them.

 

 

- Salamanders - < XVIII >

 

Advantages:

• Must re-roll a single D6 when a Morale or Pinning test is failed. Automatically pass Fear tests.
• Hand Flamers, Flamer and heavy Flamers are at +1 Strength (model and vehicle mounted)
• Enemy flamer weapons are at -1 Strength against Salamander models

Disadvantages:

• Units do not add Initiative for Sweeping Advance rolls
• -1 to randomly rolled Run and Charge distances (to a minimum of 1")
• Cannot take Moritat Consuls, Destroyer units, or phosphex weapons

Special formation/Rite of War:

• All vehicles have a 5++ save against "heat" weapons (flame, plasma, melta, volkite), all melta weapons in the army are master-crafted, 'Pyroclast Squads' can be chosen as non-compulsory Troops choices, all units gain the 'Move Through Cover' special rule
• Force cannot use deep strike, cannot take more Heavy Support and Fast Attack than Troops choices, may not take Fortification detachments

Special units:

• Pyroclast Suqad: A unit of artificer armour Marines with special flamers that can alternatively fire a 6", S6 melta shot.
• Firedrake Terminator Squad: A unit of Cataphractii Terminators with WS5. Cannot get Lightning claws and can only get a heavy flamer as a heavy weapon, but can get Storm Shields (increases inv save to 3++). Count as a scoring unit.

 

 

From what I can see, the Imperial Fists have more offensive benefits (Tank Hunter Devastators, Templar Assault unit), with the +1 BS to all bolter type weapons being their most notable Advantage. With the Rite of War and the enhanced Breacher unit they could be more defensive, but then Breacher Squads do not strike me as all that impressive to begin with. (Am I wrong with that? Are they useful?)

 

The Iron Hands seem bad off on paper, with only one advantage and a few disadvantages, but their advantage is huge. Enemy boltguns are S3 to them. Enemy Meltas and Missiles are S7, which means they cannot instantly kill Iron Hands characters. With the tougher Terminator squad and a special Breacher squad they are a more defensive army than the Imperial Fists. I am not sure what to make of their Rite of Battle. It seems mainly to "tech up" the force.

 

Salamanders strike me as not very spectacular, but as very reliable. Their flamer weapon speciality and resistance probably does not come into play that much in a Marine vs. Marine setting. They are good at standing their ground (re-roll one D6 of failed Morale and Pinning tests), but not as good at chasing down the enemy. Not sure what to make of the Pyroclast Squad. The Terminator squad is very resilient (I assume 3++ save units are not as common in 30K?), has good WS and good utility due to counting as scoring. The lack of heavy weapons or Lightning Claws is a slight drawback, but then the Hammer and FLamer Terminator squad is a trademark of the Salamanders.

 

Without knowing much about the 30K meta, I would say that the Iron Hands are probably the strongest of the three, due to their resiliance to enemy shooting. However, if the Mechanicum boasts a lot of high strength weaponry (S7 and more), then their special rule wont make much of a difference. It is much more useful against massed small arms fire. The Imperial Fists have offensive advantages (accurate bolter fire, tank hunting devastators, and an assaulty unit), so perhaps they will be able to take out dangerous Mechanicum units more effectively.

 

Edit: Correction.

[Raktra]

I'm horrendously biased towards the Iron Hands. So do them.

[Deekthegreat]

Ok so now if we can hear from the mechanicum players im flying blind on what you guys have and how to even look at the army. Itll be fun to play against this stuff but i want to have a fair chance

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just a note on Legatus' otherwise really good compilation; Immortals have been changed to have a 5+ FNP

[Raktra]

Also look here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k)

[Slips]

We should probably have a link to that Article in the 30k Resources thread LOL

[Lunar Centurion]

For anti-Mechanicum, I'd say Salamanders are best, but if you don't like the fluff, don't get them. Buy what you like. Also... isn't scanning Tempest illegal? Like... ya know piracy?

 

Arggh matey! A Tempest this way comes! Shiver me timbers

[SkimaskMohawk]

Scanning is, but depending where you live, downloading a torrent is not

[Caillum]

Can I suggest you buy the Mechanicum Taghamata Red Book? It has the rules for them (obviously) and knowing your enemy is the first step to beating them. It will give you the option of using them as Allies too!

 

But the reason I suggest it is because it has updated rules for Battles in the Age of Darkness! 6 core missions, deployment maps, secondary objectives, rules for the different Force Org charts, etc. It's a great buy!

 

I won't convince you to pick any one of those Legions, as everyone here has already done a great job of that! :)

 

Edit: it's also cheap! £32 is a bargain for the content!

[Deekthegreat]

I dont have a job atm so im relying on my fellow gamers to help me out