Outflanking denial

[dtse]

hey guys, so saw this today:

 

https://youtu.be/zJ6Tqy9Am4U?t=13m39s

 

 

 

Dude using his jetbikes to basically deny one side of the board for outflanking RWSF.  Apparently, if the dude was unlucky enough to roll that side, basically his whole army dies....

 

is this true?  not mention if its true or not, kind of a dick thing to do? whats point of playing then lol

[SnakeChisler]

If you can't come on then your just destroyed yes that is true

 

The only way of doing this is with Eldar Jet Bikes and the guy should have left a corridor with his speeder unit so that it wasn't possible using the 4" coherency rule for larger vehicles.

 

It doesn't work against Flyers, Jump, skimmer or jetbikes as the rule states you move on as if you were just off the board in a normal manner and all those types can basically hop over the line.

 

No one says anything if its just used to push you out and up the board, Its a bit of a jerk thing to do outside of competitions tho

[SnakeChisler]

On another note I'd have come in from the board edge rather than outflank on most units and outflank some

[dtse]

so it is a thing eh? nasty. But i guess you do need jetbikes to do it, since you'd have to cover the whole side

[Erren]

Also, coherency for jetbikes should be from the base, right? Not the model? I understand why some people play it with coherency from the model, but it makes a big difference in this case. The DA player definitely didn't see it coming or he could have probably used his speeders to reserve himself a little more table space.

[aura_enchanted]

you shouldnt be watching beasts of war their lack of sportsmanship is disgusting. these are the same people after all who think that playing things like the baronial court and the thunderdome are fair play in a "casual setting". these boys and go take a hike if you ask me

[librisrouge]

Be aware, things like landspeeders would be fine because they can go over the enemy and make it on the board. Tanks can tank shock the enemy aside on their way in if they have to. Only a pure bike force would really suffer this.

[shabbadoo]

^ That.  Bikes would be screwed, but speeders would not be unless there was literally no place they could end their movement *IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE* (i.e. you never have the opportunity to turbo boost in the Shooting Phase if you were already counted as being DEAD in the Movement Phase) that wouldn't still be within 1" of an enemy model.  Tanks can just bull their way into play by Tank Shocking, as noted.

[dtse]

so technically, can you block with jetbikes? I mean a normal bike could just go under, just like a speeder can go over?

[BlodVargarna]

It's a nifty gimmic that would only work (possibly) once.

[TheAvengingKnee]

IT's not a new idea: http://i50.tinypic.com/2re4m4m.jpg

 

That picture has been around for a long time. 

 

 

you shouldnt be watching beasts of war their lack of sportsmanship is disgusting. these are the same people after all who think that playing things like the baronial court and the thunderdome are fair play in a "casual setting". these boys and go take a hike if you ask me

What is it that Baronial court does that is so bad?

[SvenONE]

Isn't this whole concept from like 2 rulebooks ago? When you come in from an edge you can be placed anywhere up to the maximum distance, or are we saying that because you'd have to move "through" the models in order to be placed that the incoming units would be placed illegal (as they couldn't pass through models to get to that point).  I thought as long as they come in and aren't within 1" of an enemy they are fine.

 

In any case I can't see an opponent who has 4 feet or 6 feet wide string of models staying in cohesion to deny this entirely.  And yes, since Speeders can fly over models, this wouldn't be a problem for them either.

[ValourousHeart]

I only have 3 minor complaints with this tactic.

1) It is very situational, 2) there is a high likelyhood that it won't work, and 3) they greatly exagerated the effect if it does work.

 

You'll notice in their videos when they want to highlight something they will zoom in and give you an up close look at what is going on, typically only dice rolls.

But when they bring up a dubious point like this they generally keep the camera across the table... which prevents you from seeing the flaws in their logic.

 

Another thing to consider is that units are not required to move straight on to the table, and I don't think that they have ever been.

So there is nothing to prevent a unit from coming on and taking a hard left turn around an enemy unit in order to clear out of the way of the units coming after.
 

If they had showed a close up view of this you would see that what the Eldar player was really betting on was that EVERY RW unit was going to roll 1-2 and be forced to come in on that side which would have meant that a SINGLE unit was destoryed.

 

In a way the tactic worked, but it was only that he played on his opponents poor math skills and spacial recognition.

The odds were not 1/3 chance to lose ALL of his units, I think there were 5 units coming out of reserves, so it was a more like 1/250 that he would lose ONE unit.

 

I don't see this as being, what did they call it, a CLUTCH move.

To me it seems like a very desperate opening gambit.

Sure, a Hail-Mary pass has the potential to win a football game... but there is a reason why the first play of the Superbowl is never a Hail-Mary.

 

I think it is better to focus on tactics that leave less up to chance.

This tactic requires 1) your opponent outflank with a significant part of his force, 2) a signifcant portion of those units come in on the same turn, 3) and the same flank, 4) you know exactly what turn they are coming in, 5) you have a unit in position that can cover enough of a board edge that leaves less than 1 base width plus 1 inch gap to the corner at either end, and 6) that units has to be able to cover that distance in a single turn to prevent casulties which could affect that gap.

If you remember those jetbikes started in reserve... so the likelyhood of success is even lower as it required him making that reserve roll.

 

A 1 in 500 chance to wipeout a single unit comeing out of reserves, is not a solid opener in my opinion, and it certainly isn't a CLUTCH move.

Well I guess it kinda is... because you are grasping at straws.

[ValourousHeart]

Also, coherency for jetbikes should be from the base, right? Not the model? I understand why some people play it with coherency from the model, but it makes a big difference in this case. The DA player definitely didn't see it coming or he could have probably used his speeders to reserve himself a little more table space.

I don't believe that flying stands are counted as bases, so therefore they default back to the physical model.

And from a practical point of view, it doesn't make any sense that an Eldar Jetbike model (which is longer than a SM bike) would take up less space on the table than a SM bike.

 

so technically, can you block with jetbikes? I mean a normal bike could just go under, just like a speeder can go over?

Yes you can block because of a couple of reasons.

First Jump, Jet, Jetbike, and Skimmer models are allowed to ignore other units when moving, but unless you are one of those unit types you can not ignore Jump, Jet, Jetbike and Skimmers when you move.

Flyers I believe ignore everything, even other flyers when they move.

 

Then there is the practical stand point that you CAN'T pass through units.

I say practical, because you CAN pass through units if you have room, there just usually isn't room.

 

Given that most models will be about 1 inch wide and unit coherency for most units is 2 inches, that would only leave 1/2 inch on either side to pass.

This means that friendly units could move through eachother if they are spaced right.

But enemy units which must remain 1 inch away won't be able to.

However, a vehicle squadron can have up to 4 inches between models, which leaves a 2 inches wide path for that same an enemy model to move through.