Ishagu Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Riff Raff in this case isn't referring to poor or scummy people, but gamers who might be more interested in power levels than lore and setting. There ARE people who jump from overpowered army to overpowered army in 40k, and those people are largely responsible for Codex creep... or maybe they exist because of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Riff Raff in this case isn't referring to poor or scummy people, but gamers who might be more interested in power levels than lore and setting. There ARE people who jump from overpowered army to overpowered army in 40k, and those people are largely responsible for Codex creep... or maybe they exist because of it. Price is very little object to those people. When a new power army comes out, they're the ones you see on ebay trying to sell everything for OEM prices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I am not sure if M@verik is joking about "riff raff"? I have never been a power gamer in 40K, more of a fluffy gamer. I have struggled to get into 30 and FW in general due to costs. To be called riff raff because I do not have the funds to buy all that FW offers is a bit insulting. I have saved hard and have begun on the road, what I find is the cost means that you have to think harder about what you need vs what you want. I like 30K for the atmosphere and the stroies (fluff) and because it looks to be an enjoyable game. Not because I want to be seen as elitist. Don't be insulted as it was not meant to be insulting. Believe me I too struggle with FW prices. Think of FW as an exclusive gentlemens' club catering to intellectual and business orientated members we all strive to join. Eventually we all get in and are surrounded by other equals we can connect with and enjoy conversations with. And then they open the doors to teenagers wearing backwards caps talking about jersey shore and the kardashians... Yes I am an Imperial Elitist ;P And yes I am joking haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I thnk more they exist because of codex creep. After all it is down to the designers and rules guys in GW about how tey go about makng te rules theredknight & possibly m_r parker wrote up a good piece about it from the iopen day seminars and the reason some codexes are super buff and others not , is that it depends if a rules guy is into the army or not. If he loves the army it gets strong, if he doesn't care it gets the meh treatment or worse. Couldn't find the review but found this :) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313540-warhammer-40k-open-days-2015-fw-seminar-page-11/?p=4200546 I'd rather M@v referred to them as WAAC players or :cuss's to be a bit clearer But thanks for clarifying, and sorry if I came off as touchy. I have never heard of Geordie Shore, now where's my pipe and smoking jacket? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes, you can wait .... wait >.< does that mean i can finally use more than one Questoris Knight Detachment in my army, which would allow me to have more than 14 Knights in a single game? when did you get this answer? it may be a change in book VI ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes, you can wait .... wait >.< does that mean i can finally use more than one Questoris Knight Detachment in my army, which would allow me to have more than 14 Knights in a single game? when did you get this answer? it may be a change in book VI ^^ Time stamp is 29 of October, I presume this year but don't take my word for it. I have no Russian linguistics to speak of. EDIT: Of course there is that advertisement of a free Knight Scion that surely points to this year, lol. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Time stamp is 29 of October, I presume this year but don't take my word for it. I have no Russian linguistics to speak of. well it would be awesome, because i could make an army like this: Hidden Content High King - Questoris Knight Megaera High Court - Questoris Knight Baron - Questoris Knight Baron - Questoris Knight Crusader - Cerastus Knight Castigator Paladin Lance - Questoris Knight Paladin - Questoris Knight Paladin - Questoris Knight Paladin Errant Lance - Questoris Knight Errant - Questoris Knight Errant - Questoris Knight Errant Cerastus Lance - Cerastus Knight Atrapos - Cerastus Knight Archerus - Cerastus Knight Lancer Tripartite Lance - Questoris Knight Warden - Questoris Knight Crusader - Questoris Knight Gallant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes, you can wait .... wait >.< does that mean i can finally use more than one Questoris Knight Detachment in my army, which would allow me to have more than 14 Knights in a single game? when did you get this answer? it may be a change in book VI ^^ If you own more than 14 Knights you get a special golden ticket signed by Alan Bligh saying you may urinate on your opponents army after defeating them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Time stamp is 29 of October, I presume this year but don't take my word for it. I have no Russian linguistics to speak of. well it would be awesome, because i could make an army like this: Hidden Content High King - Questoris Knight Megaera High Court - Questoris Knight Baron - Questoris Knight Baron - Questoris Knight Crusader - Cerastus Knight Castigator Paladin Lance - Questoris Knight Paladin - Questoris Knight Paladin - Questoris Knight Paladin Errant Lance - Questoris Knight Errant - Questoris Knight Errant - Questoris Knight Errant Cerastus Lance - Cerastus Knight Atrapos - Cerastus Knight Archerus - Cerastus Knight Lancer Tripartite Lance - Questoris Knight Warden - Questoris Knight Crusader - Questoris Knight Gallant You have too much money ;P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I would personally just have everyone use the age of darkness rules, be it xenos or imperium. Evens the playing field a bit, making a fair game for both sides.That's what we do. When any of our guys with xenos armies play our 30k armies they use the AoD force org chart. Ever seen a DKoK Siege army with an AoD List? Tasty, tasty ordnance. Yes, you can While it illustrates my point in taking detachments, it actually doesn't answer the question because it doesn't address the differing ally charts. Thats highly unusual. It specifically says no more than one detachment IIRC I haven't really read the red books, Conquest or Tempest, but IIRC, that was in concern to how certain ROWs prevented Legions from taking other Legion allies within the same detachment. If so, it wouldn't apply since it is within that one detachment. More of a question really since I'm not current with 30K rules. Ok so I am confused. (as always) Does this mean if my army is big enough I can take an Age of Darkness, Onslaught, Castellan, and Leviathan Detachment all in the same army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 You have too much money ;P probably^^ to be honest, I'm just a fan of the old epic 3-Knights-of-the-same-type lances, which means I try to build my army around that, but we have currently too much different types of Knights to make that with one Questoris Detachment :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I would personally just have everyone use the age of darkness rules, be it xenos or imperium. Evens the playing field a bit, making a fair game for both sides.That's what we do. When any of our guys with xenos armies play our 30k armies they use the AoD force org chart.Ever seen a DKoK Siege army with an AoD List? Tasty, tasty ordnance. Yes, you can While it illustrates my point in taking detachments, it actually doesn't answer the question because it doesn't address the differing ally charts. Thats highly unusual. It specifically says no more than one detachment IIRC I haven't really read the red books, Conquest or Tempest, but IIRC, that was in concern to how certain ROWs prevented Legions from taking other Legion allies within the same detachment. If so, it wouldn't apply since it is within that one detachment. More of a question really since I'm not current with 30K rules. Ok so I am confused. (as always) Does this mean if my army is big enough I can take an Age of Darkness, Onslaught, Castellan, and Leviathan Detachment all in the same army? According to that? Maybe? I'm not too sure on the current rules but it certainly looks that way. E-mail FW for clarification? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The restriction is why 30k has a semblance of balance (minus mechanicum lol). Take away the restrictions and then you have the wildly imbalanced land of 40k. This is how it starts, people want to be able to take all the things, but fail to grasp the repercussions of doing so. To quote from Cold Mountain: they made the weather and then they stand in the rain and say ":cuss, why's it rainin'!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydriatus Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes, you can wait .... wait >.< does that mean i can finally use more than one Questoris Knight Detachment in my army, which would allow me to have more than 14 Knights in a single game? when did you get this answer? it may be a change in book VI ^^ If you own more than 14 Knights you get a special golden ticket signed by Alan Bligh saying you may urinate on your opponents army after defeating them. If my local Knight player tries that I'm gonna thump him... (Yes, he has double digits of Knights. Anyone who went to Scorched Earth in Cardiff saw the five he brought along...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 If your mixing and matching for power and not flavor, you're doing it wrong. No. You are so incredibly wrong. This is basically a Basketball player criticisng a football player for kicking it. If a football player plays Basketball, then play the basletball rules, if a Bball player joins in a footy match, play by football rules. As long as your enjoyment doesn't infringe on your friends/opponents, then that is fine But if a BBall player (Fluff based collector who enjoys playing) wants to play a 30k Grand Master, then they shouldn't impose the self imposed limitations outside of the rules to which they built an army. Noone really cares that much that your Army is representative of a lesser known action referenced in a throw away quote by a BL character and only fields Dreadclaws without troops, and Jump Infantry with Basilisks and Adsecularis allies, fine. Sure it is nice for a themed army, but that army will get crushed by an army built to win a GT. Same for a GT player; if that player goes to a much more casual club and crushes everyone, and makes people feel bad when they do so, there is no room in the hobby for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Centurion Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I believe that's called having your cake and eating the other guy's too. Can I put this in my sig? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4214995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Wow, lots of confusion in this thread. On page 159 of tempest (and probably in the new mechanicum red book) it explains how to make armies using the age of darkness system. It says "these replace the standard Battle forged army system" and then "each...army is composed of a single primary detachment, and may also contain a number of optional (Secondary) Detachments as shown on the relevant Force Organization Chart". This means the email doesn't actually mean anything since the rules are extremely clear and the sender didn't actually understand them, the types of detachments are explicitly detailed on the relevant force org; no piling on detachments to get around the ally restrictions, and that you're inherently limited to the ally matrix of 30k Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I am the definition of Rif Raff with my 7 Imperial Knights D: ( thats not even a joke , Im actually Rif Raff ) If 30k is a Gentleman's Club Where are the Ladies at BRING ME THE SISTERS OF SILENCE SO I CAN BURN THE UNCLEAN ! Nah but Seriously I think this is going to be an issue only if yer gaming group allows it to be an issue. If people want to mash armies and your group lets them then ..well thats a thing your going to deal with. At the end of the day you can always say " No , Im only playing 30k vs 30k or 30k vs 40k not trying to be part of the middle ground. There will be cool combination sometimes that are fluffy and sometimes people will go " So here is my Draigo Cent Star Alpha Legion List" and you will just wanna smack that person , my advice is just to not play them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I'm pretty sure we will see more and more younger player getting into 30K now with the release of the plastic set. I don't want to be one of those 'old gits', but the steeper forgeworld price always kept the riffraff out and catered more to the mature fluff based player. Things are about to change :( Nah, the box gives you troops, the most boring part of the list. You still have to cough up for the special units, tanks, and Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Wow, lots of confusion in this thread. On page 159 of tempest (and probably in the new mechanicum red book) it explains how to make armies using the age of darkness system. It says "these replace the standard Battle forged army system" and then "each...army is composed of a single primary detachment, and may also contain a number of optional (Secondary) Detachments as shown on the relevant Force Organization Chart". This means the email doesn't actually mean anything since the rules are extremely clear and the sender didn't actually understand them, the types of detachments are explicitly detailed on the relevant force org; no piling on detachments to get around the ally restrictions, and that you're inherently limited to the ally matrix of 30kWell, that clarifies the detachment problem. Still falls remarkably flat of answering the question about the matrices since having different detachments doesn't exactly bypass them. If you have a CSM detachment and a BA detachment, they're still Come the Apocalypse(I believe that's what it is called?) and have to obey that restriction. It's just that unlike pre-7th edition where that restriction prevented you from building such a list, you can do it anyway. That's the only "restriction" being bypassed. And from the description you just gave from Tempest, 30K has followed suit. What needs to be answered no is whether or not the matrices can be combined or does their inherent difference act as a restriction? Which requires a rule quote or forgeworld email that says something along the lines of "for the purpose of playing games with Warhammer 40,000, the Legions count as this on the normal allies matrix" or "while the armies of the Horus Heresy can be played against the armies of Warhammer 40,000, they cannot be combined together." I mean heck, xenos armies aren't even included in the 30K allies matrix. But pretty dang soon, we're going to be having Marines running around with xenos tech and I am more than willing to bet it won't be long after that we see a pirate crew with xenos, humans and Astartes. Shoot, we already have the Cabal, the Pharos device and The-Great-Thingymabob the Lion is running around with. All you need now is the actual xenos in the open. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Wow, lots of confusion in this thread. On page 159 of tempest (and probably in the new mechanicum red book) it explains how to make armies using the age of darkness system. It says "these replace the standard Battle forged army system" and then "each...army is composed of a single primary detachment, and may also contain a number of optional (Secondary) Detachments as shown on the relevant Force Organization Chart". This means the email doesn't actually mean anything since the rules are extremely clear and the sender didn't actually understand them, the types of detachments are explicitly detailed on the relevant force org; no piling on detachments to get around the ally restrictions, and that you're inherently limited to the ally matrix of 30kWell, that clarifies the detachment problem. Still falls remarkably flat of answering the question about the matrices since having different detachments doesn't exactly bypass them. If you have a CSM detachment and a BA detachment, they're still Come the Apocalypse(I believe that's what it is called?) and have to obey that restriction. It's just that unlike pre-7th edition where that restriction prevented you from building such a list, you can do it anyway. That's the only "restriction" being bypassed. And from the description you just gave from Tempest, 30K has followed suit. What needs to be answered no is whether or not the matrices can be combined or does their inherent difference act as a restriction? Which requires a rule quote or forgeworld email that says something along the lines of "for the purpose of playing games with Warhammer 40,000, the Legions count as this on the normal allies matrix" or "while the armies of the Horus Heresy can be played against the armies of Warhammer 40,000, they cannot be combined together." I mean heck, xenos armies aren't even included in the 30K allies matrix. But pretty dang soon, we're going to be having Marines running around with xenos tech and I am more than willing to bet it won't be long after that we see a pirate crew with xenos, humans and Astartes. Shoot, we already have the Cabal, the Pharos device and The-Great-Thingymabob the Lion is running around with. All you need now is the actual xenos in the open. yeah, i hope we will get an updated allies matrix in order to re-create f.e. that battle: Eldar Titan Clan + Imperial Titan Maniple vs Traitor Titans = awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The biggest problems in 40K are multi-faction superfriends and borrowing allied transports. The 30K ally rules resolve both of those issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The biggest problems in 40K are multi-faction superfriends and borrowing allied transports. The 30K ally rules resolve both of those issues.So does common sense and an actual want for fun vs "I must win at all costs and I don't care how anal retentive I must be to do so." Since players already embedded in 30K are here for fun, whether it be the fluff aspect or a genuine, legitimate competitive aspect and not the "I cannot lose; I lost, that means you cheated" power gamers who actively run away from 30K, I'd like to think that means I can trust the community to be responsible. But again, I must point out that there is a lack of restriction on combining 30K and 40K. There just also happens to be a lack of permission. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 If your mixing and matching for power and not flavor, you're doing it wrong.No. You are so incredibly wrong. This is basically a Basketball player criticisng a football player for kicking it. If a football player plays Basketball, then play the basletball rules, if a Bball player joins in a footy match, play by football rules. As long as your enjoyment doesn't infringe on your friends/opponents, then that is fine But if a BBall player (Fluff based collector who enjoys playing) wants to play a 30k Grand Master, then they shouldn't impose the self imposed limitations outside of the rules to which they built an army. Noone really cares that much that your Army is representative of a lesser known action referenced in a throw away quote by a BL character and only fields Dreadclaws without troops, and Jump Infantry with Basilisks and Adsecularis allies, fine. Sure it is nice for a themed army, but that army will get crushed by an army built to win a GT. Same for a GT player; if that player goes to a much more casual club and crushes everyone, and makes people feel bad when they do so, there is no room in the hobby for it. So I'm incredibly wrong for saying you shouldn't be allowed to take Wraithknights, Typhons, Sigismund, Horus, and all the other most powerful units and play the clearly designed and designated 30K expansion or are you just here to white knight for tourne players? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 So I'm incredibly wrong for saying you shouldn't be allowed to take Wraithknights, Typhons, Sigismund, Horus, and all the other most powerful units and play the clearly designed and designated 30K expansion or are you just here to white knight for tourne players? i don't think that anyone said he would make a cheeze list ^^ but to give you a better example, i would like to take additional detachments once my prime detachment is full (= if i have taken all slots in the FoC) - and i would like to take atleast eldar (or better, eldar titan/knight clans) as desperate allies for loyalists, see the lore snipped above :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/2/#findComment-4215272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.