Legionary Pallas Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I am not sure if M@verik is joking about "riff raff"? I have never been a power gamer in 40K, more of a fluffy gamer. I have struggled to get into 30 and FW in general due to costs. To be called riff raff because I do not have the funds to buy all that FW offers is a bit insulting. I have saved hard and have begun on the road, what I find is the cost means that you have to think harder about what you need vs what you want. I like 30K for the atmosphere and the stroies (fluff) and because it looks to be an enjoyable game. Not because I want to be seen as elitist. Don't be insulted as it was not meant to be insulting. Believe me I too struggle with FW prices. Think of FW as an exclusive gentlemens' club catering to intellectual and business orientated members we all strive to join. Eventually we all get in and are surrounded by other equals we can connect with and enjoy conversations with. And then they open the doors to teenagers wearing backwards caps talking about jersey shore and the kardashians... Yes I am an Imperial Elitist ;P And yes I am joking haha. While I may be a teenager who couldn't get into 30k because of the price, I wholeheartedly vow to base my army primarily on fluff & should my stories/fluff be a mere fraction compared to the greatness I have read on this forum, I will be content. At Christmas hopefully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 So I'm incredibly wrong for saying you shouldn't be allowed to take Wraithknights, Typhons, Sigismund, Horus, and all the other most powerful units and play the clearly designed and designated 30K expansion or are you just here to white knight for tourne players? i don't think that anyone said he would make a cheeze list ^^ but to give you a better example, i would like to take additional detachments once my prime detachment is full (= if i have taken all slots in the FoC) - and i would like to take atleast eldar (or better, eldar titan/knight clans) as desperate allies for loyalists, see the lore snipped above :p And that would be fine. What he's doing is stamping on my junk because he doesn't like that people don't think what I described is a meaningful use of time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes. You are wrong. First; take a breath. Calm yourself down. This is an internet forum, where you are telling people how to play their hobby. If you are interacting with other players, both players on both sides of the table have a responsibility to make the game fun for the other. If you want to go balls deep in RAW, I hope you enjoy never playing with Rites of War. Or allied detachments. I can mire this discussion down in how poorly written the RAW is, but I won't, because noone is interested (outside of developers who won't take a second look at this thread). The RAW is broken, and is cherry picked to peoples own perspectives (ie Boarding Shields blinding enemies, houseruling Master of the legion etc) and it people who often really have no clue start waving the "RAW" flag, when really it should be as Common Sense Dictates. When it comes to a tournament, you attend with often unwritten consent that you obey by the rules. Concatenating WAAC cheaters (winning at all costs is cheating) with tournament players is rude, and often lying to suit your own personal microcosm. Start playing competitively, and you will come across some downright brutal army lists, that may sometimes take advantage of rules loop holes or black holes, but on the whole the best players in the world are those who win with fully legal lists and are able to combine power with skill and the ability to capitalise on good fortune that comes with an in depth knowledge of the rules. Rather than a snotty 12 year old who measures front to back of base and uses crocked dice. In regards to someone making a legion list with units of Obliterators, Stompaz loaded with Meks, Flayer Chariots, and Wraithknights; so what? The chap or chappess has spent time making and painting those models, and wants to play with them. As long as the other player is okay to play against such an army, then why are they "WRONG"? To force someone to play in a manner due to your own prejudices, especially if they disagree with it is more incorrect. Say that you won't play with them is fine. After all, it is they who play with houserules or homebrewed units, and canmot expect everyone to be completely accepting, but if you do join a game with them, it is not to the RAW player to make demands that the Emeperors Children/Bloodaxe Orks player to put his stompas away while your ULTRAFLUFFY FLAVOURPACKED SO AWESOME MUCH TASTY. Neither playstyle is wrong. Being an ass is more wrong. And i'm getting these vibes reading this thread in parts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Neither playstyle is wrong. Being an ass is more wrong. that's true^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 *ding ding * Alright gents, back to your corners. The level of hate and discontent in this forum about little plastic dudes played with by grown ass (wo)men is too damn high. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Wow, lots of confusion in this thread. On page 159 of tempest (and probably in the new mechanicum red book) it explains how to make armies using the age of darkness system. It says "these replace the standard Battle forged army system" and then "each...army is composed of a single primary detachment, and may also contain a number of optional (Secondary) Detachments as shown on the relevant Force Organization Chart". This means the email doesn't actually mean anything since the rules are extremely clear and the sender didn't actually understand them, the types of detachments are explicitly detailed on the relevant force org; no piling on detachments to get around the ally restrictions, and that you're inherently limited to the ally matrix of 30k What needs to be answered no is whether or not the matrices can be combined or does their inherent difference act as a restriction? Which requires a rule quote or forgeworld email that says something along the lines of "for the purpose of playing games with Warhammer 40,000, the Legions count as this on the normal allies matrix" or "while the armies of the Horus Heresy can be played against the armies of Warhammer 40,000, they cannot be combined together." Same page; "Allied Detachments should be chosen according to the Allies in the Age of Darkness chart and be of the same Faction" Now the problem is it says should instead of must so RAW isn't 100%, but the intent is pretty clear; they want Loyalists with Loyalists, traitors with Traitors, 30k with 30k, using the rules they want. A further issue is that the 40k matrix is based off Factions, while the 30k matrix is based on Legions (primarily); you'd have to make each legion its own faction and then it gets weirder because some people play loyalist versions of traitor legions, would they be stuck as come the apocalypse for imperium? I'm sure given enough thought and time a solution could be made and you could incorporate the 30k matrix with the 40k one, but the question was if the rules support making one force out of 30k and 40k and the answer to that is no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 More people, more problems. 30k is over. http://38.media.tumblr.com/a1dd1cc3758e3c6670a0704848612048/tumblr_namg5c6rap1t8enq1o1_400.gif Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 This can all be prevented from ever becoming a problem by having a brief discussion with your opponent before a game. I'm aware sometimes we can't pick and chose, and I don't want to see 30k/40k mashups myself, especially if they are making use of units chosen to make winning easier... On the other hand, someone using 40k Grey Knight rules to represent Thousand Sons wouldn't be the End of the world... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydriatus Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Or Skitarii alongside Mechanicum Cybernetica... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deekthegreat Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 So the part that was irritating me when discussing his list is he refused to discuss what i was saying about 30k armies as a primary in 40k doesnt mean you get to pick up the cult mechanicus formations his response is because its 40k he can do what he did for his list Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 You're playing two different games. Just because they have the same core rulebook, the expansion for 30k throws out half of the rules out the window (and the other half are badly written). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I do agree that the beauty of 30k is precisely the limitations that 40k lacks. 40k can be truly terrible when you face two Wraithknights and 4 Scat packs at 1k points for example. Let's maintain the things that make 30k so good - incredible models and lore, a tighter system of army building, rules heavily influenced by the said lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deekthegreat Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I love shallow waac 40k players who condisend a conversation about how its nice knowing you wont see knights in 30k below 2k because if i wanted to play a fluffy 30k imp fists that has a heavy part to bolters and a mashing of extra stuff then i dont have to worry about getting wiped out because of knights. His response its bad tactics if you dont plan for super heavies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Well, I mean, if you're playing at 2.5k+ points, hes right in that Not Planning for Super-Heavies isn't a great move. If he meant that in the context of a sub 2k game...well, theres a reason he's not playing 30k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deekthegreat Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yea but below 2k. in tempest it says lords of war shouldnt be used below 2k Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 It breaks down like this, for me. Every 40K Codex has unit entries. Each of these unit entries correspond to a slot on the Age of Darkness Force Organization Chart. If you want to port a 40K army into 30K you use the Age of Darkness, Onslaught, Castellan, or Leviathan Detachments as your first option OR the Force Organization Charts for Zone Mortalis/Zone Mortals Boarding Assault, Strategic Raid, or City Fight. You do not get formations, you do not get unbound. Your army list is treated like the 30K army lists. Now where this gets tricky is house ruling the balance. Orks specifically need this, as Legion Tactical Squads can end a boys mob in a single turn of shooting. Elder need less help, as do Tau and Necrons. Where this matter most to the Loyalist/Warmaster forces is how to integrate IG and Mechanicus into the Militia and Taghmata Lists. Do you simply allow Skitarii and CM units as troops? Can an IG Platoon be taken in a militia list if it forgoes special and heavy weapons? FW is supposed to release rules for these human factions down the line (Mars book for Skitarii/CM, and a future book will contain the mid-tier Auxiliary Army List. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I think orks are fine. They are supposed to die in droves to be fluffy anyway haha. I honestly believe all 40K lists are quite competitive against 30K lists at 2K points or less. Lets be honest here. Why did we all move to 30K? I will try not to sound like an ass. For most people it was to get away from WAAC players, crazy ally charts and downright retarded rules. Have you ever had to contend with a deathstar with a 2++ rerollable invul save? Army of the month syndrome? Blood angles and necron allies? I personally do not have much time to game or paint. I'm lucky if I get a game in a month and frankly I want to feel it was worth it. Do I want to win? Sure.Do I mind losing to a superior player? Not at all, in fact I relish it. Do I mind losing to an army of the month where my codex cannot compete since I didn't max out on the new super shiny ultra mega thing that was just released? You bet I mind...What 30K gives us is balance.I see legions more as age of empire races. Remember those? Was it not balance and everyone having access to 95% of the same units what made it a great game still played today? Yes the Franks sucked... but still. You can take the new tank? Cool so can I.You can take apothecaries for fnp? Cool so can I. As for tournaments, warhammer in its entirety was never actually good as a tournament game, because it could never be fully balanced due to the vast scope of the different races, rules etc. There were always different levels where 1 or 2 were by far superior, several in the middle and 1 or 2 right at the bottom and not worth even considering. If you are a tournament player, try x-wing. It is the best tabletop tournament centric game I have ever played. And due to the lower costs involved, everyone can have access to specialized builds. Back to 30K! 30K as I see it, was designed for the veteran gamers. The guys who grew up through the various 40K editions, where marine army lists deviated by 1 or 2 rules, not entire builds, 10 special characters, special vehicles, special psychic charts etc. Can you still build crazy cheese 30K lists? Sure you can, but I have yet to meet someone who does. 30K just caters to a group of people who are sick and tired of what 40K has become and just want to play against each other where both walk away happy whether they win or lose. We were all given what we craved from FW.Let's not ruin it again. Long post over. Hope I didn't sound like an ass and if you disagree with anything, please feel free to debate further. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Forgeworld creates rules based on their fluff. Games Workshop creates fluff based on their rules. That's why 30k is excellent and why 40k is now like a pre-school jungle gym at recess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 What an interesting thread. All it boils down to is asking your opponent whats in his army. Me: I'm playing 40K Iron Hands, whats in your army then mate? Op: These are generic 40K units and these guys here are from 30K. Me: Those are 30K'ers, from 10,000 years ago. Are they Chaos? Op: No. Me: If they're not chaos and living in the eye then they are All Dead! You just lost a load of your army before Turn 1, should be an easier game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4215931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'm surprised there's so much debate about this. The rules for playing in AOD are pretty well explained in the Admech red book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 There shouldn't be debating really, as someone said, there's no formations malarky (at the moment) in heresy, that's the beauty of it, no one has the upper hand so much. Some may have better rules than others, but that boils down to personal opinion. At my gaming group, we have a kreig player who'd be better off with militia, but he likes 40k. He set his army up using the aos force org chart and it worked out pretty well. Others have 40k models (these ones ultras) who have been used as 30k troops with the same legion and force chart. And that's fine. Some people really don't like mixing, but if it gets a good player into the fold then great! I myself have heavily blinged blood Angels, and will snip the heads off and stick mk4 ones on there or beakies. There's my base for a new legion. (Waiting till the rules come out before I bulk them up more though) So that respect its fine. We had someone try to take 2 knights and curze in a 2500 pt battle, and everyone said he was being 'that guy' you just don't do it on a casual game. So that's how we keep balance. Me personally, I won't play 40k crazy formations vs my 30k, refuse to do it. Simply because it is unbalanced. Now that 40k player wants to proxy as a 30k army on the level playing field then I will help as much as I can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 We had someone try to take 2 knights and curze in a 2500 pt battle, and everyone said he was being 'that guy' you just don't do it on a casual game. So that's how we keep balance. That and he'd be breaking the 25% rule anyways with Super Heavies in AoD. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 We had someone try to take 2 knights and curze in a 2500 pt battle, and everyone said he was being 'that guy' you just don't do it on a casual game. So that's how we keep balance. That and he'd be breaking the 25% rule anyways with Super Heavies in AoD. ? Not if he uses the Knights as an allied detachment^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Especially since RAW, knights cannot be taken as LoW for Legions only under a Questoris Knight Detachment which means purchasing Ranks which then compounds on the fact that, at 2.5k hes taking 3 ~400 point models in an army... So really, you'd be facing a 1.3k List with 3 Hard-to-Kill Units :p Its not like its a 6 Knight list at 2.5k which is totally doable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 We had someone try to take 2 knights and curze in a 2500 pt battle, and everyone said he was being 'that guy' you just don't do it on a casual game. So that's how we keep balance. That and he'd be breaking the 25% rule anyways with Super Heavies in AoD. ? Not if he uses the Knights as an allied detachment^^ Ah yeah, forgot about that. Garbage regardless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/3/#findComment-4216183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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