Theredknight Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 He was using knight allies, pretty crap to do in a friendly game! So youl always get 'those' sorts of power gaming people and he's not a new player. Regardless. Curze and Knights would have destroyed the opponent, who was practicing for a campaign we were playing at the time. In fact he refused to play him. So he changed the list lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 He was using knight allies, pretty crap to do in a friendly game! really? tbh, i never played against a Knight (or with one), but i would take draykavac and my paladin too as allied detachment in a non ZM game tbh :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 He was using knight allies, pretty crap to do in a friendly game! really? tbh, i never played against a Knight (or with one), but i would take draykavac and my paladin too as allied detachment in a non ZM game tbh Atia, I know you aren't so naive as to believe that's in the spirit of a friendly 2000 point game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I run a Knight in 40k games at 2k or less and I wouldn't say he's particularly overpowered. In 30k there's a lot of Haywire and Sunder... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I run a Knight in 40k games at 2k or less and I wouldn't say he's particularly overpowered. In 30k there's a lot of Haywire and Sunder... we just had a whole thread comparing the two, 40k is a wildly different place where 2,000 points goes a lot further than it does in 30k where an assault squad is 250 points base. As for the knight, it's the combination of Draykavac and a Knight that just seems unnecessary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 He was using knight allies, pretty crap to do in a friendly game! really? tbh, i never played against a Knight (or with one), but i would take draykavac and my paladin too as allied detachment in a non ZM game tbh Atia, I know you aren't so naive as to believe that's in the spirit of a friendly 2000 point game. Well, with the info we've got, I kinda have to agree, yeah not the most friendly move to bring 2 knights at 2k. But its not the whole picture, either. For one, I dont think we know what list he ran? If he's running pure infantry blobs with enough AT to only be able to deal with Av13 at most then it...yeah. However, one should reasonably expect to encounter a decent amount of Av14 at 2k or at least the occasional Spartan. How does a Spartan relate to a Knight? Easy: the method used to kill one works equally as well for dealing with the other. If you can deal with a Spartan, you can deal with a Knight. Sure, they have an invuln facing on one arc, but its Av13 At most meaning that much more guns can hurt it. its not even Av 13/13/13 like a LR/Spartan is Av 14/14/14 so there are weaknesses to exploit. The simple 2x Dual Graviton Dreads in Pods should be sufficient enough to deal with a Knight or weaken it enough to the point where the knight charging the dread is actually a liability. We also don't know the type of knights he was running. We also aren't considering the fact that, at 2k, two knights is at minimum ~700 points worth of investment meaning the rest of his Legion list is only 1.3k or less and we know how hard it is to actually build a list with that many points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Two Vindicator Laser Destroyers will put a Knight down in one turn... In all fairness a super heavy with only 6 hullpoints and av13 isn't unstoppable. Or maybe I simply don't find them as threatening because I run lots of tank hunting armour in my lists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Okay so i'll be dead honest, everyone references these grav contemptors as the be-all, end-all solution to armor since they have two haywire shots, however I have yet to read about, watch, or play a game in which one of these, or even a pair of these "wrecked" enemy armor. I would love to hear some stories and batreps as I'm genuinely interested in how they actually do since all I see winning heresy tournaments is massed Iron Hand/Iron Warrior gunfire and mechanicum lists with a bunch of castellax and super venators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I can theoretically see how they'd work but I personally wouldn't run more than one, and I like the Kheres for multi-role use. There are better ways to damage vehicles... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I can theoretically see how they'd work but I personally wouldn't run more than one, and I like the Kheres for multi-role use. There are better ways to damage vehicles... Yeah exactly, grav contemptors are honestly the last thing my mind goes to when thinking of AT, I mean 270 points for a possible tuen 1 delivery of two glances is a pretty high risk/reward ratio to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Fair enough. Though I feel the reason most people dont run them is mainly because it looks stupid Who wants to use Box Dreads in 30k when weve got CONTEMPTORS, DEREDEOS AND LEVIATHANS!? SCREW THOSE PLEB BOXES. >_> *cough* I will say that, while knights are beefy and scary, they aren't the hardest thing to hurt. They'll take a while to kill due to being Super-Heavy but, my Spartan + Phobos + Achilles killed two knights over 2 Turns on their own while my Sicaran Plinked away at a third. You also always have Melta Bomb Spam and such. You're never truly without recourse when it comes to dealing with a Knight in 30k. It just takes a bit more effort than 40ks "Grav it dead"....even if our cheapest solution is to "Grav it dead" LOL...yeah I can taste the irony v_v Anti-Armor, in 30k, is the least of our worries. Edit: oh and when I mention Grav Dreads I mean Box Dreads with Grav Guns. Much cheaper than Contemptors who have better things to do than be expendable grav guns :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 He was using knight allies, pretty crap to do in a friendly game! really? tbh, i never played against a Knight (or with one), but i would take draykavac and my paladin too as allied detachment in a non ZM game tbh Atia, I know you aren't so naive as to believe that's in the spirit of a friendly 2000 point game. öhm, actually I haven't played a lot since .... wait ... I think it was ... 5th edition (besides a few ZM and AoS games)? So I ask again, where is the problem with a Knight at 2k points as allied unit if i can take a Questoris Knights army with allied Space Marines too? It isn't like you don't know what your opponent has - shouldn't even a unit of meltagun support marines be enough to melt a single knight down? (again, my rules knowledge isn't the best, so bear with me) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 There's a lot of assumptions so far. One is that pick up games exist; there's some people who have still have flgs' or GWs where they can meet a variety of people and have a friendly game no problem, which is where the concept of taking a fairly tame and non-competitive list comes from. The second is that you have no idea what your opponent can take and you're completely surprised by two knights or so; again, a product of a very diverse community that, or at least one where there's newcomers and you don't really know what they collect. The reality is, that against most acquaintances/friends, you know what they own and what they're enthusiastic about and can plan accordingly; two knights and curze in 2500 is hardly a power list, but even if it it was, shaming an opponent with a strong list is probably the worst way of getting better at the game that exists. Why not try and build a strong list to counter it and have a throwdown? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Seeing as monstrous and gargantuan creatures aren't really a thing in 30k, and flyer spam isn't as viable, is there any reason why armies don't have lots of anti tank firepower? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Peoples idea of opponents with "friendly" lists seems to be choosing units which are weak to their own choices, and that a 20 Man Tactical Blob SHOULDN'T be countered by a Typhon, but rather by Eldar Storm Guardians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 I think the only unfriendly game I've had was when my opponent pleaded for me not to use Ferrus as he had "nothing that could handle him". I said that was fine, then he showed up on the day with multiple Wraithknights and the Avatar... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Really one wraithknight is all it takes; deathblow and the stomp equivalent are the strongest removal mechanics in the game and can make any player on the receiving end feel cheated by the removal of an expensive unit. One could argue that a lot of 40k players will over react to 30k and especially the primarchs, but in all honesty people who use D should know just how effective it is and how nothing really stops it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 It isn't like you don't know what your opponent has - shouldn't even a unit of meltagun support marines be enough to melt a single knight down? (again, my rules knowledge isn't the best, so bear with me) While it could work it's highly reliant on you getting the jump on that knight seeing as it can easily stay outside their 12" range and then charge them and stomp that unit to bits. On top of that many 30k players are reticent to run dedicated melta units when damn near everything (especially Spartans) can take armored ceramite and will just laugh at your now near-useless unit of 12" range str 8 attacks. In summary I would say it depends what the rest of your force looks like as to the fair/unfair balance of running both Draykavac and a Knight at 2,000 points. Seeing as monstrous and gargantuan creatures aren't really a thing in 30k, and flyer spam isn't as viable, is there any reason why armies don't have lots of anti tank firepower? Unless you count Mechanicum, the monstrous creature army with tanks superior to the legions lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 While it could work it's highly reliant on you getting the jump on that knight seeing as it can easily stay outside their 12" range and then charge them and stomp that unit to bits. On top of that many 30k players are reticent to run dedicated melta units when damn near everything (especially Spartans) can take armored ceramite and will just laugh at your now near-useless unit of 12" range str 8 attacks. In summary I would say it depends what the rest of your force looks like as to the fair/unfair balance of running both Draykavac and a Knight at 2,000 points. Well, I just have Typhon (you know, the guy, not the tank ), a Moritat and Destroyers, 10 Grave Wardens, 10 Cataphractii, 10 Veterans, 5 Deathshroud and tanks - no 20 man cheeze tacticals or so and tbh, with PotL, you have a very loooow body count if you use a knight and draykavac at 2k points edit: why not write a 2k DG PotL with House Makabius list for fun Hidden Content ++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (1351pts) ++ + HQ (640pts) + Calas Typhon (200pts) ····Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion] Deathshroud Terminator Squad (440pts) [4x Deathshroud Terminators, Land Raider Phobos, Melta Bombs] + Troops (591pts) + Legion Terminator Squad (271pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 5x Legion Terminators, 3x Power Fist, Reaper Autocannon, 2x Volkite Charger] ····Legion Terminator Sergeant [Combi-Weapon, Lightning Claw] Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (320pts) [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs, 2x Plasma Gun] ····Legion Veteran Sergeant [Power Fist, Volkite Serpenta] + Heavy Support (120pts) + Legion Vindicator (120pts) + Legion + Legion Astartes [XIV: Death Guard] ++ Questoris Knight Crusade Army (Age of Darkness) (645pts) ++ + HQ (240pts) + Archmagos Draykavac (240pts) + Troops (405pts) + Scion Martial (405pts) ····Questoris Knight Paladin [2x Bio-corrosive rounds for its heavy stubbers, Occular Augmetics] if you really think that such a list would be cheeze ... well ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 So, if I wanted to run Knights as allies in 30k I'd need a Magos HQ and a Knight... When can I use the Warden? Are the rules for Questoris knights in book 4? I don't have it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 So, if I wanted to run Knights as allies in 30k I'd need a Magos HQ and a Knight... When can I use the Warden? Are the rules for Questoris knights in book 4? I don't have it... Archmagos Draykavac*, not a normal magos^^ yeah, book 4 and 6 afaik, Warden should be in book VI^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 No Miss Atia that list isint cheese , this is cheese ( and the list I used last game ) +++ Good Knight Irene (2500pts) +++ ++ Questoris Knight Crusade Army (Questoris Knight Crusade Army) (1230pts) ++ + HQ (445pts) + Seneschal (445pts) Questoris Knight Paladin [2x Bio-corrosive rounds for its heavy stubbers] + Troops (375pts) + Scion Martial (375pts) Questoris Knight Errant [bio-corrosive rounds for its heavy stubbers] + Elites (410pts) + Aucteller (410pts) Questoris Knight Errant [bio-corrosive rounds for its heavy stubbers] ++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Allied Detachment) (1270pts) ++ + HQ (230pts) + Sigismund (230pts) [Master of the Legion] + Elites (180pts) + Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (180pts) Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')] Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')] Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')] + Troops (485pts) + Templar Brethren (485pts) [4x Combat Shield, Land Raider Phobos, Melta Bombs, 4x Templar Brethren] Chapter Champion [Combat Shield, Solarite Power Gauntlet] + Fast Attack (175pts) + Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (175pts) [Melta Bombs, Sky Hunter Sergeant, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters, Volkite Culverin] + Heavy Support (200pts) + Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (200pts) [Armoured Ceramite, Dozer Blade, Lascannons] + Legion + Legion Astartes [VII: Imperial Fists] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 So, if I wanted to run Knights as allies in 30k I'd need a Magos HQ and a Knight... When can I use the Warden? Are the rules for Questoris knights in book 4? I don't have it... Archmagos Draykavac*, not a normal magos^^ yeah, book 4 and 6 afaik, Warden should be in book VI^^ Aww man, it just HAD to be a specific guy :-/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Isn't the 30k setting meant to be about the grandiose? Arcane machines striding alongside the regulars as well as the superhuman space marines? If you can fit something into the list then why shouldn't you? If people agree to 30k vs 40k games then all is groovy we're meant to be having fun. Why are 30k guys fighting in 40k? Stuck in the warp. I'd rather play as many games as I can against varied opponents to improve my tactical game while trying to build lists with models and builds I've enjoyed creating/painting. Never play to WAAC. Heck I just like playing whether I get stomped by a very experienced dark eldar player or run a tight game with someone or maybe even win once in a while I'll always enjoy the ride Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deekthegreat Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 Ok so the original post here was because somebody who owns 30k models was running them in his primary detachment and then adding in a cult mechanicus formation from the 40k book as one army his argument is hes playing 40k and can do what he wants since thats what the core rulebook says my argument and the one that most agree with is no you cant just pick from both you play all out on one or the other. Picking and choosing what to use to get the best buff out of your army is dumb and it takes away from the thought of 30k being at a crusade level of millioms of troops facing down the galaxy unlike the 40k setting where its the imperium vs everyone including its own imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315592-age-of-darkness-and-40k/page/4/#findComment-4217967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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