Are Knights a liability?

[Frater Cornelius]

Disclaimer: This is about competitive play.

 

Usually, IKs are a good idea. But is a singular one as good as it used to be? Look at the Meta. Scatterbikes supported by D. SM Battle Company or Drop Pod Madness. Now Tau will be re-introduced into it. Then there is Flyrants and Daemons, Invisibility abuse and so forth.

While three IK with a 3++ front will do a decent job, will a single one?

 

Ranged D and Melta alpha strike has the ability to remove one without warning. Invisible D Thirsters trample over it. Tau will glance it to death. The Battle Company will take a bit longer, but it has enough redundancy to delay killing it to T2.

 

I am not doubting its firepower or offensive output. I am concerned that is too easily removed and leaves a big hole in the list. Wouldn't it be better to use the 400-ish points into durability and redudancy?

[mmimzie]

Disclaimer: This is about competitive play.

 

Usually, IKs are a good idea. But is a singular one as good as it used to be? Look at the Meta. Scatterbikes supported by D. SM Battle Company or Drop Pod Madness. Now Tau will be re-introduced into it. Then there is Flyrants and Daemons, Invisibility abuse and so forth.

While three IK with a 3++ front will do a decent job, will a single one?

 

Ranged D and Melta alpha strike has the ability to remove one without warning. Invisible D Thirsters trample over it. Tau will glance it to death. The Battle Company will take a bit longer, but it has enough redundancy to delay killing it to T2.

 

I am not doubting its firepower or offensive output. I am concerned that is too easily removed and leaves a big hole in the list. Wouldn't it be better to use the 400-ish points into durability and redudancy?

If tau bring storm surges they can get a handful of D missles ^.^ and just throw those at your night, and the go shoot other stuff.

 

Hmmm I don't know as far as admech is concerned and think it's one of your stronger options against wraiths... Though a unit of infiltrators can deal with the wraiths as well.

 

 

But I mean is it really a survival issue. Your bring the knight for the abou of damage per points that you get, right??

[Frater Cornelius]

Against some lists they work perfectly, but against others they die T1. The offense is no issue. They always get their points back if they live past the alpha strike. However, is it worth the risk that you lose 430pts T1? Or say minimize it and take a 375pts Knight. You will lose 1/5 of your list in potentially 1 shot.

 

You are right, they are an amazing counter-assault unit and build excellent pressure. But the cost is that they are easier to kill than, say, a Cohort.

[mmimzie]

It's a glass cannon. While it won't live as long as cohort (or even just a unit if kastelans) against shooting(and maybe as good or better in assault) It puts out more wounds per turn.

 

So is it worth it?? Is your list all super tanky and hard to kill that hopes to get its value over multiple turns??? Then no as your oppent doesn't have to shoot your tanky stuff; he just focuses your squishy high damage knight.

 

Is your list a bunch of skits in pods, some kataphrons destroyers, or similar high damage squishy stuff? Than the knight works really well as him dying just means other parts of your list can live and get big value.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, a mix actually. A Cohort, two MSU units of Breachers, a medium unit with Destroyers with Dominus Tank, a Void Shield and just enough points left for a Warden. Pretty balanced.

[CommodusXIII]

I never thought I'd see the day when someone refered to a Knight as "a glass cannon" or "squishy".

[mmimzie]

It's a meta thing. With D weapons such as tau have a bunch of slit fireable missles, wraiths knight with d shots, jet bikes glancing you to death, TWC smashing it to bits, and skitarii scoring pod assisted arc shots.

 

It's kind of squishy.

 

It's just squishy for the points. Your 400 points disappears if a few units of jet bikes troll your shields or a single 6 removes it. Compare to a kastelan manople se set of point but that same D only reduces the units effectivenesw by 45% (maybe giving the Smith too much credit)

[Frater Cornelius]

I never thought I'd see the day when someone refered to a Knight as "a glass cannon" or "squishy".

40k development in a nutshell ;)

 

But yeah, the Eldar book changed a lot of things with such easy access to ranged D.

[Dark Bjoern]

Yeah, and those rediculous Stormsurge too. Took my knight Styrix with a f...ing destroyer missile out of the game. Put some marker on my knight and upgrade the rocket to a D missile.

[Frater Cornelius]

It is really a tough call. I can protect it fairly well from SM alpha strike. Outside of the Stormsurge there is nothing Tau can do, neither can Necrons. It is mainly Eldar D, Wraithknights are the worst offenders. But is it a good idea to alter the list because of one unit?

[Dark Bjoern]

What about Gauss weapons? Didn´t face the Necs with a Knight so far, but i guess Gauss worked pretty well against a Knight.

[Frater Cornelius]

Not really. They need to be within 12" to do real damage, at which point the IK will either charge or keep his distance. Ghoat arc are potentially the only think that could damage it reliably through massed Gauss spam, but then it still takes 54 shots to kill one, not counting saves. It takes a while. Edited November 6, 2015 by Immersturm

[CommodusXIII]

I have more problems with Scarabs than massed Gauss.

[mmimzie]

Yeah knights are really just treated by eldar, tau (storm surge is really good), and admech alpha strikes.

 

Eldar also can do some jet bike work.

 

Necronns are good because they are tanky

[jeffersonian000]

Tall LoS blocking terrain fixes most of these problems. Stormsurge can't indirect fire it's D missiles.

 

SJ

[Dark Bjoern]

Yes, he can. That´s the problem. You need some Pathfinder for the marker and that´s it. One marker to fire the missile and the other ot make a D weapon. No LoS needed. Only the Pathfinders need a LoS. And if he uses two Pathfinder squads it become difficult to hide a Knight.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Dark Bjoern

[MagicHat]

Yes, he can. That´s the problem. You need some Pathfinder for the marker and that´s it. One marker to fire the missile and the other ot make a D weapon. No LoS needed. Only the Pathfinders need a LoS. And if he uses two Pathfinder squads it become difficult to hide a Knight.

 

Nah, seeker only works on seeker missiles, which the Destroyer missile definitely is not.

[Targetlock]

i think it depends on the army you facing, some armies like eldar and tau would just mince i think while others like orks would struggle.

[Ishagu]

Knights can definitely be dealt with in the current meta, and struggle against flyers and Invisible units.

 

...but why not take your own flyers and make the Knight invisible? Marines have the tools to cover the Knight's shortcomings.

[Frater Cornelius]

I disagree that they struggle against invisible units. As long as stomp exists, they have mors tools than most. As for Marines, invisible IK is definitely a fun option to consider when playing SM. However, as of right now I am playing Cult.

[mmimzie]

Yeah they'd do alright with marine, but that won't really make them safer against eldar or tau D weapons.

 

 

Most of the really good competive SM list I've seen are huge demi companies using obsec and numbers to win, and adding a knight does nothing to add to this.

[Frater Cornelius]

Marines are a giant mess anyway. In fact 40k is. But no way around it I suppose :P

[Ishagu]

30k? :-P

[Frater Cornelius]

I am riding that train already. Check the disclaimer up top. This is solely about competitive 40k. When I want to run fun and narrative lists, I play 30k Mechanicum :P Edited November 8, 2015 by Immersturm

[Bartali]

I am riding that train already. Check the disclaimer up top. This is solely about competitive 40k. When I want to run fun and narrative lists, I play 30k Mechanicum

 

Seems to be the wrong way round ? 30K appears nicely balanced for competitive play, whilst 40K is a car crash