Warhead01 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 It just occurred to me that it might be interesting to build a Dark Angels legion. Maybe there will be rules for Luther. I like that idea. I think it's just questionable enough to justify fighting other loyal Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 That's already accounted for within the allies notes for basic legions; after all, Kyr Vhalen is a (pretty naughty) Iron Warriors Loyalist. In the LA Crusade Army List redbook, it states "Note that the chart itself is not split along the lines of Traitors and Loyalists, as in many cases, the Legions themselves were split into factions for either side, and so instead, in particular campaign battles you are fighting, who plays the Traitor and who plays the Loyalist in your version of the Horus Heresy (and such additional limitations this poses) is left up to you. In regards to "additional limitations", this has an effect on the availability of certain legion specific units and characters. Any Legion can ally with any legion (although some receive penalties if they do so), and denoting some as being loyalists, and some as traitors; for example, a loyalist Iron Warriors list using Kyr Vhalen can be the allied detachment to Iron Mechanicum; but the Mechanicum cannot take Draykavac (or vice versa), as he is noted as traitor, while a Sons of Horus army cannot take both Abaddon and Garviel. Of course, if you wish to play a preHeresy list, then there's nothing preventing you, but there are some units are considered to too deep into the Heresy even if they theoretically existed beforehand (a PreHeresy Ultramarines List could ally with a Word Bearers detachment and have the Word Bearers use Gal Vorbak in the same list as Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 I'm not exactly following how this is related. I still have a lot to read over all so I guess once I've done that things will be more clear. My friends mostly play loyalist legions and I would like to collect one as well, so this would feel close to playing a traitor legion to me with out collecting one I don't want. I'm not saying I believe the Dark Angels were traitors but it opens some possibilities. there's something Orwellian about it that I like. 30K is a lot to take in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 The Dark Angels as fence sitting opportunists is a disservice which is as the most recent fluff shows them to be existentially loyalist, battering the Night Lords and hunting the Death Guard; and I never really understood why the Dark Angels didn't side with Horus in that instance anyway, as that would have utterly swung it in the favour of the Traitors; the Night Lords would have been free, and the Death Guard too, leaving much more veteran warriors of both sides (particularly in the event of the 1st legion) able to fight against an Emperor shattered in mind and body, and with Horus gone, the Lion would invariably have (deluded himself admittedly, if not actually able to) been able to command the legions and finished the job. Any legion fights any legion, as all legions had traitors, and all legions had loyalists. There are no special rules needed to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 I don't really think that they were waiting it out. Not exactly.I have the feeling that the Dark Angels civil war was what kept them from supporting a side actively or other wise. Which would be amusing if it's "revealed that Luther was the good guy for revolting against the Lion, forcing the lion to stay out of the larger more important war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Except isn't the fall of Caliban specifically post Heresy? So that can't happen. Besides, isn't the whole 'The Lion was waiting to see who won' thing the biggest example of the fans taking an in universe statement by a specifici character as unbiased Gospel? That theory comes (as far as I can recall) from Astelan's testimony in Angel of Darkness, ie. a Fallen Angel with one hell of an agenda. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 What if the Lion needed the civil war and it was planned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 What if the Lion needed the civil war and it was planned. You're going to have to explain that one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just a passing thought. What if the lion needed a way to clean out those disloyal. At the same time fighting a civil war was a way to make his legion unavailable to the traitor legions. I doubt this will turn out to be the case but it's an interesting twist. A kind of, plots within plots, which I am sure every primarch would have been capable of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I'm on my mobile so can't get into this in detail, but it is a very interesting train of thought, especially given what we know about the Lion's cold brilliance, planning and ability to run simulations to cover all eventualities. As much as I hate Gav's writing, I'd suggest reading his short 'The Lion' as it has a very interesting conversation in it in which we get some (small) insight into this topic. Because I can't use spoiler tags I won't say any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronotonic Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Or perhaps that Luther was using chaos to stop the lion from assisting Horus at the most crucial time. He had half a legion or so of legionaries loyal to him and then to the emperor. He knows that he head made a mistake by not getting rid of the bomb from the word go that is why he thinks he was sent home. Someone like him will realize after this galactic war that the imperium will turn their full might and he was wrong and needs the emperor. So he is using chaos to put on the field with those primarchs and help the emperor ------- That or he was replaced by the alpha legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 But didn't the Lion find out about the rebellion until after the Battle of Terra has concluded. They got word of it being done, they returned to Caliban and got fired on. Luther trying to prevent Lion of joining would mean that he would have made an attempt to contact the Lion or at least do something to get his attention. But no, they just threw a surprise party after the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The Lion was a brilliant tactician but awful judge of character. The books hint that he is poor at Reading or judging people, so the partial betrayal of his Legion probably came as a surprise to him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I think Ishagu hit the nail on the head the lion is a great stratagist and an excellent Knight but his major flaw(cause all primarchs have them regardless of what all those pesky XIII legionaries say) is that socially he is a paranoid and introverted he doesn't really understand people and there motives he knows what they "should" do and think but he can only base his estimations on what he would do. He is like Greystone Tarzan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Now my favourite reference to the lions loyalty: "Here perturabo have some really big siege guns, will you be on team lion if I need you?" Now if you are trying to bribe someone to be on your side, that to me doesn't indicate the kind of loyalty everyone likes to believe the lion has Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 for sure I have always thought of the lion for sure if not his legion in general kinda meandered around all non commital trying to see which way the war would go before he chose a side Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 ....It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.- Lion From "The Primarchs"/The Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 This has gotten very interesting indeed. Lots of good points. I've not read all the books. After suffering through the first one... Angels of Darkness. I have been gun shy about them. I'm reading The Unforgiven now only for the plots and secrets. I think I may have the two 30K/HH Dark Angels book on my shelf so I'll suffer through those as well soon. I say suffer mostly because I find it difficult to read stories about characters I don't like or care for. Which goes back to Space Marines as a whole as I see them as sheltered children more or less. About the Lion, It's interesting that being I guess, Idealistic is his down fall. I was very Idealistic when I first join the army and then reality set in and I adjusted. And the Lion is a primarch! with a mind beyond most mortal comprehension.... Yikes! I'm starting to feel a little bad for Luther. I first picked up Dark Angels in ..1996..ish so most of what I recall comes from reading the Angels of Death codex. I think the first encounter with the story remains more or less how I understand events. I am really enjoying the illumination of those dark and forgotten times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 .... About the Lion, It's interesting that being I guess, Idealistic is his down fall. .... Hm, what do you mean by Lion's downfall? I think that Lion was one of the few of the primarch who were able to see the bigger picture and didn't percieved reality in black and white ("loyal"/"traitor") like Dorn or Russ. BTW why people say he was a bad judge of character and is paranoid etc? Dorn, Russ, Ferrus were even greater sociopaths and yet only Lion takes the "beating" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 .... About the Lion, It's interesting that being I guess, Idealistic is his down fall. .... Hm, what do you mean by Lion's downfall? Maybe I should have said weakness. But it is only "true" if in fact, he was as bad a judge of character and or as trusting as is implied. The Bit about team Lion from above. Or maybe it was all an act to get others to make his moves one way or another for him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The lion has never really come across being idealistic. Deluded and bitter, yes. Idealistic, no. He had an inferiority complex and a streak of napoleon about him. He believed he should have been Warmaster but chance took it away from him due to Chaos whisking the Primarchs away. Ie he was destined to be first (1st legion etc) and then due to the machinations of the warp gods, had it taken away. Idealism rarely came into it as opposed to entitlement. Of course, that is mostly due to him not hqving current fluff, because it is more important learning about Red Shirt Shattered legions being killed/triumphing against all odds . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hesh would you care to elaborate what " Lion's inferiority complex and napoleon streak" means? And why was Lion deluded? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hesh would you care to elaborate what " Lion's inferiority complex and napoleon streak" means? And why was Lion deluded? Agreed, I'd like to read that debate. So please by all means let the BATTLE Begin! Image of Howard Moon here. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7mdfHWfepQxTtJ4milUAm_MCpVA1c0OJnWVx9PWqtjCA_qypM3Q Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The Lion did feel robbed of being Warmaster, however, he accepted it and thought that that was going to be the Emps choice anyway. I heard a great theory that the Lion could be autistic (please bear with me, this is not meant as inflammatory) as he is incredibly intelligent, but is completely unable to relate socially. I personally, am making a pro-Imperial Lutherite Dark Angels that have remanants of the old 1st legion among them. My plan is to have them disavowed by the main legion (as much as I like mainstream dark Angels) to fight their own battles. This could make them turn renegade or even go traitor, but like the Dark Angels they are, they stay true to the Emperor and the Imperium as a whole. Sort of how the Star Phantoms or possibly even the astral claws were of dark angel stock, but completely separate from the "Unforgiven" chapters. If you want to do something away from the main legion, I'd start there. After all, legionaries were being raised on Caliban the whole time, and there's nothing to say they couldn't have been sent to the stars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 ....It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.- Lion From "The Primarchs"/The Lion Rainbow Dash, give back the element of loyalty. The Lion deserves it way more than you do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/#findComment-4218597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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