rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 One thing for certain - I doubt any other primarch recieves as much attention on B&C as the Lion Guys on 1d4chan summed up all heresy DA factions pretty well : Those with the Lion and the main body of the Legion who are staunchly loyal to both Primarch and Emperor. Those who are not with the Legion or on Caliban and whose loyalty is yet undecided. Some are Loyal to the Lion and some are loyal to Luther but so far all seem to be still loyal to the Emperor. Those on Caliban who turned against Luther and remained loyal to the Lion and Emperor and are now imprisoned in the dungeons beneath Aldurukh. Those on Caliban who are loyal to both the Lion and Emperor but believe Luther when he tells them that they are following their orders. Those on Caliban who are Loyal to Luther not the Lion but are still loyal to the Emperor and believe that they are obeying his orders. Those with Luther on Caliban who are loyal to Luther and have turned their backs on both the Lion and the Emperor. None have gone so far as pledge their loyalty to Horus yet. Corswain would travel with Belath (the same arse from “Call of the Lion”) and the Second in order to hunt down the Death Guard forces under the command of Typhon, they would end up giving the Death Guard such a hard time that Mortarion himself decided that he needed to take control of the situation personally. Belath would eventually end up annoying Corswain (yes, this guy is so annoying he managed to get under the skin of the guy who held his own in a verbal duel with Sevatar without losing his cool) and was ordered to commandeer as many transports as he could and head to Caliban in order to collect all the Dark Angels stationed there and bring them into the fight. In the “The Wolf King” it is revealed that the First Legion has secret resources hidden throughout the galaxy including entire Star-forts that somehow nobody knew about. Of course the idea that the Dark Angels could possibly be associated with some kind of secret legion is completely ridicules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Its a big crusade in a big universe with approx 100,000 legionnaires, if you want some Horusian Dark Angels you have your Horusian Dark Angels. Im currently in the middle of trying to finalise some ideas for my Dark Angel successors - this force was raised on neither Terra nor Caliban during the Heresy... Their training cadre is made up of Terran Dark Angels so there is no calibanite connection. During the Heresy they are attacked by a numerically superior traitor force (most likely Night Lords) who decimate the freshly raised units... The chapter call for help but are left to fight on alone until the traitor forces are recalled for the assault on terra... They are not present for the end of the heresy and consquently Luther's betrayal and due to the inherent secrecy in the Legion and the fact that they have no ties to Caliban are never let into the secret of what befell Caliban and the concept of the Fallen... The subsequent changes to the organisation of the Legions - i.e becoming Chapters is accepted outwardly in theory but never in practice with the freshly raised foundings maintaining strong links with their brethren... They maintain a bitterness to the Calibanite elements of the legion and they strive to piece together what happened after the Heresy and why they were left to their own fate by their brethren and father... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Their training cadre is made up of Terran Dark Angels so there is no calibanite connection I just read that. And it's actually the other way around. 500 Dark Angels from Caliban sent home shortly after their first campaign. (if that's the right word.) I am still looking for my copy of Decent of Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 You misunderstand the training cadre is for my fluff on the recruiting world of Durega... Not Luther, Zahariel or Astelan and the shamed Dark Angels... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Gotcha! Sounds good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 As I say its a big universe with many combat attachments between legions. With the way The Lion comes across towards Terran marines in the fluff we've seen written so far it wouldnt be a big leap to imagine Terran Marines attached to the Sons of Horus or another soon to be traitor legion to feel a kinship with them which carries them across the line into rebellion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Hesh would you care to elaborate what " Lion's inferiority complex and napoleon streak" means? And why was Lion deluded? The lion believed that he should have been the Warmaster. Why? Because his legion was the first legion, ergo, he was the first Primarch. Why would he be the first primarch if not to eventually ascend to become the Right Hand of the Emperor? That is what should have happened, anyway, but the warp caused the Primarch's to be scattered, and instead, Horus was found first. By accident, or more likely design, the Lion was cheated out of his given role. The inferiority complex stems from the fact that as soon as his underling called into question his judgement, he flew off the handle (as did said underlings swede), and the Napoleon Complex, while being more of a stretch, was more associative with social stature rather than that of his physical height. His social stature is... Basically non-existent. He is recognised as being capable comparatively to some of his other brothers, like say Curze, Angron, but there are few who actively consider them to be close friends, and none to the extent that the Iron Hands and the Emperor's Children, in that similar manner. Even Guilliman who is about the most appreciative of his talents (that we've seen so far) and Sanguinius have to either blithely ignore or just tolerate it while within his presence; the Blood Angels of the Sanguinary Guard certainly didn't appreciate it. The only legion who consider the Dark Angels to be best buds in accordance with the Legion Allies charts are the Salamanders; and meh. Basically they're everyone's friends because they're otherwise poor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 1. Lion-Warmaster argument. Lion was not the only malconent. From what I recall even Angron raged that it was he who should have been chosen. We don't know what other "disappointed" primarch did or said on that matter so I think Lion is not that special. In fact being "first primarch" was at least some argument.Not only that but he was allegedly second best general/strategist/tactician in the Imperium. 2. Inferiority complex. Most of the primarch were "socially awkward". I can't remember any primarch who would call Curze, Angron, Perturabo a "close friend". Curze being insane psychopath (and hipocryte), Angron being Angron, Perturabo the one with real inferiority complex (self-fullfiling prophecy syndrome and giant hipocrysis) being used and cheated by everyone. There's also Lorgar who was considered weakest of them all priot to heresy, Corax who just didn't care about being friend with anyone, Dorn who was unable to compromise and was so inflexible and stubborn that at some point he antagonised every other primarch he had contact with. So generally speaking I can't see Lion to stand out as special. Iron hands/Emperor's Children relations were in fact unique amongst the legions. You also fail to mention that Lion and Russ where doing quite well (I hope this thread will get some well deseved attention from BL at last). Oh, and for being uncapable of accepting criticsm - Perturabo "killed" Berossus for bringing him bad news. Legion Allies chart is totally random in my opinion. Alpha Legion for exmple is "distrusted ally" of almost every Legion, except Thousand Sons (fellow warriors) who according to FW own fluff avoided them when they could, White Scars (not sure why) and sallies (also why?). In AL background however, there is a note that campaining "on multiple occasions" alongside Iron Hands and Dark Angels went without problem. So why are they not fellow warriors? FW logic I say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 That was actually very helpful. I misread the allies chart and thought the Dark Angels could take no allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 ....It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master. - Lion From "The Primarchs"/The LionRainbow Dash, give back the element of loyalty. The Lion deserves it way more than you do. YUCK! No, nein, negative, nosireebob. Or at least, not based on that awful short story in the Primarchs anthology, where the Lion is a slobbering nut job who divides his time between murdering his own Chaplains, babbling to himself alone in dark rooms, and willfully using daemon engines that run on the souls of children. There are depictions of the First Primarch where he shines, but that dreck isn't one of them. I can only assume Gav Thorpe was writing a story about the Night Haunter, was told to do a Dark Angels story instead, and responded by replacing every instance of "Konrad Curze" with "Lion'El Jonson" and sending it in to be published. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 YUCK! No, nein, negative, nosireebob. Or at least, not based on that awful short story in the Primarchs anthology, where the Lion is a slobbering nut job who divides his time between murdering his own Chaplains, babbling to himself alone in dark rooms, and willfully using daemon engines that run on the souls of children. There are depictions of the First Primarch where he shines, but that dreck isn't one of them. I can only assume Gav Thorpe was writing a story about the Night Haunter, was told to do a Dark Angels story instead, and responded by replacing every instance of "Konrad Curze" with "Lion'El Jonson" and sending it in to be published. 1. There was only ONE chaplain killed. 2. He didn't talk to himself. 3. Tuchulcha - same as servitor. And it is warp device not demon engine Remember that Iron Hands/Guilliman wanted it too. "The Lion "is better tha Descend and Fallen Angels combined. In my opinion And I can't remember any depictions of the Lion except stuff I mentioned. There's also Unremember Empire but I don't like it so don't take it into account. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That killing Nemiel bit enraged me every time - however, I read Gav's response for this, and it made sense. He said that he wanted to show that beneath his calm demeanor, the Lion is raging on the inside with emotion. Not all the beasts on Caliban were destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The Lion, realistically, should not have expected to be named Warmaster. He was a Warrior and a general, but had no social or political acumen. He couldn't even inspire the full loyalty of his own Legion. Horus was the correct choice and Guilliman the only other realistic option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 That killing Nemiel bit enraged me every time - however, I read Gav's response for this, and it made sense. He said that he wanted to show that beneath his calm demeanor, the Lion is raging on the inside with emotion. Not all the beasts on Caliban were destroyed. He also said he did this to avoid obviously cliche duel between Nemiel and Zachariel and that makes double sense The Lion, realistically, should not have expected to be named Warmaster. He was a Warrior and a general, but had no social or political acumen. He couldn't even inspire the full loyalty of his own Legion. Horus was the correct choice and Guilliman the only other realistic option. What about Sanguinius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I'm not sure Guilliman would have been a good choice. Yes, he's a master logistician and can solve the public debt of every country on earth in his sleep, but he doesn't strike me as hypocritical compromising enough to be Warmaster. It's not only deciding who and what go where and how; it's also about convincing Mortarion not to pounce on Magnus when he turns his back to look condescendingly down on some marine who never heard the word 'jentacular' before, praising without meaning it Alpharius for wasting three months on one backwater planet when even Lorgar managed to conquer three planets in the same time so that he's 000,17% less likely to stab you in the back before the next meeting, not punching Perturabo in the face for demanding to be treated with respect when that jerk doesn't even consider his own sons people and so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead01 Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 While I get it that a Primarch is an overly exceptional creature, I can understand the Lion not have strong bonds with his brothers. Mostly It seems he was fairly far away from them and didn't get a lot of opportunity to build a lot of those bonds. He and the wolf king did start to. I think they had a good bit in common. But we may never know. The rest seems to me to come from experience. So beyond being schooled to lead and what ever that covers. How many times had the Lion been in situations where he had to be diplomatic? I'm not familiar with the number of worlds he reclaimed. Maybe he was never meant to be war master. Weren't every Primarch born with a purpose beyond unification? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315722-a-question-of-loyalty/page/2/#findComment-4218865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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