Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I really like the style of DA. However, post-Heresy they all seemed to have abandoned every notion of common sense and went pants on head crazy. Seriously? Hunting the Fallen and not telling anyone? Almost every Legion had traitor elements... Anyway, I wanted to know if it was any better before the Heresy. Why am I asking? As I said, I love their knightly style, but I really dislike all that brooding and being too secretive. Not very knightly... Or maybe there were other redeeming factors? I really try to like them :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Almost every Legion had traitor elements... The Dark Angels background made more sense before the Horus Heresy series, when the other loyal Legions didn't have traitor elements. A lot of things made more sense before the Horus Heresy series... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Think of the Lion, he too sought perfection, not in the same way as Fulgrim though. His Legion was the first and they excelled in all things. He had a mighty large reputation to uphold, and it's often stated the race for warmaster was between him and Horus. So, you have the "best" Legion, and half of it goes traitor? If his sons are like him you'd want to keep that on lock down. He knew it would compromise the imperiums view on the legion as a whole and they'd never recover. I agree, it's a little silly but it's what they need to do, better to be untrusted and prove yourself than branded a heretic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 @ Legatus - This would actually make far more sense. Still, not a fan of cloak and shadow games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's looking increasingly like the DA always had a tendency to mystery and secret-keeping, from their legacy as the Emperor's first legion, from the semi-mystical traditions of the Order on Caliban, and from the Lion's own personality. Definitely knightly and nowhere near as obsessed or moribund as in 40k, but they had plenty of esoteric stuff going on in their byzantine organisation; they were all thrones, wings and sub-orders. It all looks a bit more casually masonic or like the Roman cult of Mithras, not as broody as they wound up after ten thousand years of obsessively making their sins worse with increasingly desperate coverups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I look at it from here: Just like the Iron Hands in particular, they have a fault in which they have gained from the Primarch. But instead of the notion that Flesh is Weak and should be replaced with Iron, they believe in secrecy to a large degree. They have gone pants on head crazy due to this, but they also have the lions pride in them too which over the years has been turned to 100000000000%. Essentially they like most of the legions have taken their extremes and been shaped by them. They say there is a fine line between Loyal and Renegade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's looking increasingly like the DA always had a tendency to mystery and secret-keeping One (of the many) issue I have with the BL/FW take on the Legions is that many of the traits we later got to know them for were supposedly not developed over time due to decisions by their Primarchs or certain events, but the Legion had allways been like that. I.e. the Dark Angels were allways secretive, even before a shameful incident occured that the 40K Dark Angels try to hide (it wasn't because of that critical incident) the Alpha Legion were allways special operatives, even before Alpharius took over (it wasn't because he grew up as an underground fighter) the Night Lords were formed from criminals even before they were supplied by recruits from Nostramo (it wasn't that this now newly introduced criminal elements) the Ultramarines tried to minimize casualties and adapt the doctrines of other Legions before Guilliman took command (it wasn't due to Guilliman's education on Macragge) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's looking increasingly like the DA always had a tendency to mystery and secret-keeping One (of the many) issue I have with the BL/FW take on the Legions is that many of the traits we later got to know them for were supposedly not developed over time due to decisions by their Primarchs or certain events, but the Legion had allways been like that. I.e. the Dark Angels were allways secretive, even before a shameful incident occured that the 40K Dark Angels try to hide (it wasn't because of that critical incident) the Alpha Legion were allways special operatives, even before Alpharius took over (it wasn't because he grew up as an underground fighter) the Night Lords were formed from criminals even before they were supplied by recruits from Nostramo (it wasn't that this now newly introduced criminal elements) the Ultramarines tried to minimize casualties and adapt the doctrines of other Legions before Guilliman took command (it wasn't due to Guilliman's education on Macragge) Yeah, I find this very disappointing. I always though the Legions were pretty standard military forces before they started to diverge following the doctrines of their Primarch. It lessens the impact the Primarchs had on the development and identity of the Legions... but why would anyone want that to be the case? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Eh, I think they work and improve upon the legion's characterisation in subtler shades. I can't say I cared for the idea that the legions were blank slates who only gained characterisation under the primarch's command; the various iterations on the hero's journey that each primarch represents always seemed a bit dull to me and I am glad to see them take less of a centre stage in the FW background. Not going to argue about it though, I can absolutely see how having each legion wind up fitted to the most appropriate primarch could raise eyebrows, but with regard to this particular example, the DA are now much more interesting to me. I think we're just valuing different things in what we want from the background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Well, the story takes the approach that genetics influence your life as opposed to choices, which I find rather limited in scope by the way, hence the Legion end up partially like their Primarch. I just find it odd that no Legionary ever raised his hand and pointed out that some choices were bloody stupid. Super-human intelligence my arse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The Alpha Legion's tactics, although interesting, are really a big waste of the superior combat abilities of Space Marines. It's why Guilliman had issues with them. It truly is a waste of time for them to Infiltrate the enemy when they can just as easily crush them with minimal loses thanks to superior equipment, ability and so on. As for Angron, the guy wasn't fit to even lead a horse to water. He was throwing away Marines because of the poor methods of waging war the World Eaters adopted under his leadership. No, it's not a good idea to run across a battlefield waving your axe around when gun towers are showering you with bullets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Spoken like a true son of Rowboat Girlyman, ever so convinced in their own superiority ;) :D But in the end, I kind of agree. But they needed to distiguish them somehow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Also, the Emperor did create each Legion with a purpose in mind, something that would become apparent after the Crusade would have concluded without the Heresy. One to build an Empire, one to fortify it, one to guard the hearth, one as the outrider and so forth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The Alpha Legion's tactics, although interesting, are really a big waste of the superior combat abilities of Space Marines. It's why Guilliman had issues with them. It truly is a waste of time for them to Infiltrate the enemy when they can just as easily crush them with minimal loses thanks to superior equipment, ability and so on. As for Angron, the guy wasn't fit to even lead a horse to water. He was throwing away Marines because of the poor methods of waging war the World Eaters adopted under his leadership. No, it's not a good idea to run across a battlefield waving your axe around when gun towers are showering you with bullets. The Alpha Legion were about Superiority of combat in a sense, and they had it. You could say that they only showed there superiority and wasted lives in their conflicts with there use of Infiltration, but we do not know most of the conflicts they have had a part in. There is also one point too, They have been known for taking the most sane and simplest way of bringing a planet into compliance such as the Sniper Exodus. The Alpharius/Guilliman conflict seemed to be more of a boast of tactics and superiority which is what Guilliman had an issue with. As for Angron, it might not have been a good idea, but it mostly worked haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Well, the story takes the approach that genetics influence your life as opposed to choices, which I find rather limited in scope by the way, hence the Legion end up partially like their Primarch. I just find it odd that no Legionary ever raised his hand and pointed out that some choices were bloody stupid. Super-human intelligence my arse. Ah, but that's the thing, hundreds and thousands of Astartes did so much more than just raising their hand. Garro, Dantioch, Shabran Darr and Kyr Vhalen are pretty well know examples of Astartes that went against both their genetic legacy as well as their literal lifelong conditioning to oppose their legions when it came to calling out bad decisions. I'm sure there's a good example within the Dark Angels of someone or other calling out the Lion on bad decisions as well... But I just can't put my finger on it... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 How do they say? Exception that proves the rule? ;) But I get what you are saying :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I mean, Istvaan III was crafted entirely in an attempt to purge huge swaths of the traitor legions of Astartes that disagreed (or at least would have been suspected of disagreement) with the ideas of their respective Primarchs. That's a pretty big exception, and only one example of it ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Well, purging loyalists from traitor ranks is a somewhat bigger disagreement than telling his Primarch to get some social skills and as such has a somewhat higher chance of being documented ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The Alpha Legion's tactics, although interesting, are really a big waste of the superior combat abilities of Space Marines. It's why Guilliman had issues with them. It truly is a waste of time for them to Infiltrate the enemy when they can just as easily crush them with minimal loses thanks to superior equipment, ability and so on. As for Angron, the guy wasn't fit to even lead a horse to water. He was throwing away Marines because of the poor methods of waging war the World Eaters adopted under his leadership. No, it's not a good idea to run across a battlefield waving your axe around when gun towers are showering you with bullets. The Alpha Legion were about Superiority of combat in a sense, and they had it. You could say that they only showed there superiority and wasted lives in their conflicts with there use of Infiltration, but we do not know most of the conflicts they have had a part in. There is also one point too, They have been known for taking the most sane and simplest way of bringing a planet into compliance such as the Sniper Exodus. The Alpharius/Guilliman conflict seemed to be more of a boast of tactics and superiority which is what Guilliman had an issue with. As for Angron, it might not have been a good idea, but it mostly worked haha. It was Legatus or Veteran Sergeant, I believe, that once mentioned that in the older lore, Alpharius disagreed with Dorn as opposed to with Guilliman. I'm not sure which is the better story. This is Rogal "CAMOUFLAGE IS THE COLOR OF COWARDICE" Dorn, after all. He probably would punch Corax in the face if he could get his hands on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 That was probably me. In the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 32) the Alpha Legion had been described as having come into conflict with other Legions even before the Heresy. In particular there "seems to have been a strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists", and they clashed on more than one occasion prior to the heresy. This made sense, since the Imperial Fists Legion had been described as having a rigid structure, unimaginative commanders, a preference for more static warfare, and a numerical strength similar to that of the Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines on the other hand were generally described as adaptive and flexible, valuing initiative on lower rank levels, specifically having a background of difficult mountain regions (Guilliman's first command, plus the location of their Fortress Monastery), and of course being vastly numerically superior than other Legions. When the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article was released, they suddenly were given a feud against the Ultramarines, who here were described as doctrinally "anathema" to Alpharius' ideas of flexibility and initiative. He trapped them in difficult mountain terrain, which the Ultramarines apparently had trouble coping with, and at one point a stalemate between the "similar numbers" of the Alpha Legion and Ultramarine Thunderhawks is described. All of that would have made more sense if it had been the Imperial Fists. The rigid tactical doctrines, the problems dealing with the terrain, the similar numbers of assets. I suspect the author instead chose the Ultramarines as an "antagonist" for the Alpha Legion because the Imperial Fists had already been given a specific feud with the Iron Warriors. (But then the Ultramarines also already had a feud with the Word Bearers...) Another explanation could be that the author was just not all that fond of the Ultramarines. The same author had also written the Luna Wolves Index Astartes, where he had given them the honour of having liberated the most worlds, instead of the Ultramarines. Both articles display a distinct lack of familiarity with the Ultramarines background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Runner Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 There was a Dark Angel that confronted the Lion and opposed him. Nemiel, as chaplain, in one of the shorts, I believe The Lion by Gav Thorpe. No spoilers unless you pm me. Being a long-term Dark Angels player, I've been through all the different backgrounds from Plains world, to knightly orders to secretive introverts. The element I'm going to focus my heresy era force on is highlighting the differences between terran and Calibanite marines, through different armour styles and markings etc. The terrans will be mostly 'clean' armour marks, with simple markings etc. and are getting most of the mk4 armour from the new box. Calibanite marines get custom armour akin to the artwork. Might even make the box into the forces sent to face Horus's boys in Fallen Angels. Chaplain - check Veterans - check Assault cannon dread - check Sounds just right :-D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315820-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-4220838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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