Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Another topic about the sensibility of the Dark Angels "hunt for the fallen" mania in light of every loyal Legion having traitor elements got me lamenting about how so much else used to make more sense in the older material. So I thought I post a small collection of things that were changed in the Horus Heresy series. To me these are almost inevitably changes for the worse, but often enough I see people appreciating the changes for one reason or another. - - - Previous Lore ("40K" lore)- - - - 30K loyal Legions have no traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past - The Ultramarines Legion was around 25,000 strong --> they were at close to full strength during the split --> The Ultramariners were divided into 24 Chapters - A 30K "Chapter" was a formation of 1,000 men --> Guilliman used this as the model for the new independent formations --> A 40K Chapter is 1,000 men - The Council of Nikaea forbid sorcery but allowed psykers --> everyone still uses psykers, but the Thousand Sons were reprimanded for continuing to use sorcery - 30K Ultramar was 9 worlds --> the Ultramarines kept all of the worlds despite of the reduction to a Chapter --> 40K Ultramar is 8 worlds (1 was eaten by Tyranids) - Sigismund was a line Trooper, but was such an amazing fighter that he was honoured by the Primarch with the title "Emperor's Champion" --> when the Legion was divided, Sigismund was even allowed to lead his own Chapter --> the 40K Black Templars fight nothing like the Imperial Fists, and the "Emperor's Champion" is not a commanding role, but a fighter seeking out enemy champions, as you would expect from a founder who was not a Commander but a fighter - the 30K Space Wolves look out for the weak (like Leman Russ slowing down the SW/DA race to Terra in order to save a forgeworld, getting the Tank named in his honour) --> the 40K Space Wolves look out for the weak - the Ultramarines learned of the Heresy when terra was under attack --> they immediately made haste to Terra --> the Ultramarines arrive after Horus had been killed - - - New HH Lore ("HH/BL" lore) - - - - ALL 30K loyal Legions have traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor (??) --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past - The Ultramarines Legion was around 250,000 strong --> unknown condition after Heresy (??) --> The Ultramariners were divided into (??) Chapters - A 30K "Chapter" was a formation of up to 10,000 men --> division into "Chapters" (??) --> A 40K Chapter is 1,000 men (??) - The Council of Nikaea forbid all sorts of psychic disciplines --> everyone eventually had to go against the decree - 30K Ultramar was 500 worlds --> some worlds are destroyed by the Word Bearers (100?), perhaps more happens (??) --> 40K Ultramar is (??) worlds - Sigismund was the "First Captain" of his Legion, the highest commander under the Primarch --> when the Legion was divided, Sigismund led his own Chapter --> the 40K Black Templars fight nothing like the Imperial Fists, and the "Emperor's Champion" is not a commanding role, but a fighter seeking out enemy champions, nothing like what Sigismund's position in the Legion had been (??) - the 30K Space Wolves are ruthless and terrifying to the average Imperial --> some change of heart (??) --> the 40K Space Wolves look out for the weak - the Ultramarines were attacked at the outset of a 7 year long Heresy --> stuff happens (??) --> the Ultramarines arrive after Horus had been killed (even though the Blood Angels made it in time ??) Did I forget anything noteworthy? Do you like the changes, or perhaps like individual ones but not others? Edit: Some other changes brought up in the discussion: - 40K Space Marines seem much more resilient. --> HH/FW Space Marines die in much greater numbers. - The "40K" Alpha Legion fought in a more conventional manner, and left the infiltration stuff to "mortal" operatives and Chaos Cults. --> HH/FW Alpha Legion are secret agents that infiltrate everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah, the SW part irks me just as much as the DA part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The original Lore is definitely better in the points you raised. What's even more confusing is that the original lore is still the correct one as per the latest Marine codex, and is thusly Canon. I don't know why FW felt the need to re-write some of this.... And do so without consulting the 40k writers? The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) My biggest issue with the HH Lore is that Space Marines are not really super warriors like described in the 40k lore, but simply slightly stronger humans who die as easily as Guardsmen. The casualties suffered by the Ultras on Calth were so severe and quick it kind of spits on the idea of a 40k Chapter being able to survive for 10 millennia as it's so easy to kill the whole lot. I'm invested in 30k for the model quality and tighter rules ahead of the lore, which is admittedly presented very nicely but is too contradicting to the established canon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think some of these discrepancies were intentional, to show that some information, like what happened at Istvaan, isn't common knowledge in the 41st millennium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) It doesn't. It says, as that passage has said for decades, that the Apocrypha of Davio names 9 Successors, and the Apocrypha of Skaros states 23 Chapters without naming them. They're both in-universe sources, they both date from thousands of years after the Second Founding, and they're both called "Apocrypha", which means a work of dubious authenticity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think in terms of the Dark Angels, and this is my opinion of course, it wasn't just a few Dark Angels that fell, but enough to almost split the Legion in two. The fighting caused the destruction of the homeworld, with their promarch possibly killed fighting Luthor, perhaps the second most important figure in the Legion. I could see these facts, this stain on their honour, as being something they want to cover up. They were the first legion, they considers themselves to be one of, if not the, best legion, and they don't want to appear to legion that almost fell to the other side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Frankly, everything has been downhill since the REAL original lore when the Ultramarines were a Third Founding Chapter with Traitor gene seed and Leman Russ was an Imperial Guard Commander. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 It doesn't. It says, as that passage has said for decades, that the Apocrypha of Davio names 9 Successors, and the Apocrypha of Skaros states 23 Chapters without naming them. They're both in-universe sources, they both date from thousands of years after the Second Founding, and they're both called "Apocrypha", which means a work of dubious authenticity. That means there could be one or two Chapters that were forgotten. Or perhaps a Chapter such as the Grey Knights was officially listed as an Ultramarines successor at the time of the 2nd Founding, even though it was not created from the Ultramarines Legion (to hide it's origin). It doesn't mean "it was actually 200+ successor Chapters". The division of the other Legions is presented as matter of fact, and not "as according to some unreliable sources", i.e. the Imperial Fists dividing into three Chapters, the Space Wolves into two, the Blood Angels into six (used to be four), etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdT Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Personally I think that the new stuff regarding all Legions being split in some fashion not only makes a lot more sense, but actually underlines the tragedy of the Dark Angels. Both the V and the I were Loyalist Legions with traitorous elements; it seems entirely true to both Legions' characters that the philosophical and forward-looking Scars just shrug their shoulders and move on, while the paranoiac, brooding Angels drive themselves collectively mad with pointless self-inflicted guilt. "Men are not prisoners of fate, but only prisoners of their own minds," and all that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) It doesn't. It says, as that passage has said for decades, that the Apocrypha of Davio names 9 Successors, and the Apocrypha of Skaros states 23 Chapters without naming them. They're both in-universe sources, they both date from thousands of years after the Second Founding, and they're both called "Apocrypha", which means a work of dubious authenticity. The codex lists all the Chapters spawned from the Ultras. There is no ambiguity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (...) Leman Russ was an Imperial Guard Commander. He was an "Imperial Commander", which is the official title of an Imperial planetary leader. Marneus Calgar and Logan Grimnar are Imperial Commanders, for example. But the Space Wolves were indeed founded a few years after the "third founding" Ultramarines. Also, the Ultramarines were not founded with traitor gene-seed, they were merely given the number (XIII) from one of the traitor Legions. The latter could be related to the fact that in a lot of the 'Epic' publications from 1st Edition, the Ultramarines had the number III while the Emperor's Children had the number XIII. Similarly, the Salamanders had the number VIII while the Night Lords had the number XVIII. I suspect the numbers waere later switched because it was a bit odd that all the loyalists just so happened to have been from 1-10 while the traitors were all from 11-20. However, by that time the WD article describing the Ultramarines as third founding had already been forgotten and they and the Space Wolves were now first founding Legions participating in the Horus Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 - ALL 30K loyal Legions have traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor (??) --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past Did I forget anything noteworthy? Do you like the changes, or perhaps like individual ones but not others? + Name the traitor Imperial Fist or face me in a duel to the death, heretic + Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 That means there could be one or two Chapters that were forgotten. Or perhaps a Chapter such as the Grey Knights was officially listed as an Ultramarines successor at the time of the 2nd Founding, even though it was not created from the Ultramarines Legion (to hide it's origin). It doesn't mean "it was actually 200+ successor Chapters". Says who, based on what? It doesn't mean anything beyond what it says, and never has. Two sources with no first-hand witnesses involved in their creation were each able to account for a handful. That's it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 New lore is better by far. Bigger legions make the Galaxy wide war seem More plausible Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Says who, based on what? Based on the official Legion strength of 10,000, for example. Last seen in the 6th Edition Codex Space Marines (2013) on page 6. Average Legion strength is 10,000. Then, after the Scouring, a "near full strength" Ultramarines Legion creates 24 Chapters. Checks out. Could have been a Chapter more or less. We only have this old book to go on. + Name the traitor Imperial Fist or face me in a duel to the death, heretic + I'll gladly watch you carry that fight to Black Library and Forge World. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The original Lore is definitely better in the points you raised. What's even more confusing is that the original lore is still the correct one as per the latest Marine codex, and is thusly Canon. I don't know why FW felt the need to re-write some of this.... And do so without consulting the 40k writers? The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) My biggest issue with the HH Lore is that Space Marines are not really super warriors like described in the 40k lore, but simply slightly stronger humans who die as easily as Guardsmen. The casualties suffered by the Ultras on Calth were so severe and quick it kind of spits on the idea of a 40k Chapter being able to survive for 10 millennia as it's so easy to kill the whole lot. I'm invested in 30k for the model quality and tighter rules ahead of the lore, which is admittedly presented very nicely but is too contradicting to the established canon. The reason for the high casualties in 30k is because they are fighting other astartes constantly. And massive quantities of them. There have been many of examples of the astartes in 30k survivng incredible things Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilks Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I dont agree that the marines were easier to kill. At the time of the great crusade they may not have been so specialist with their recruiting methods but they were still a force to always be reckoned with. I think if anything the 40k lore has taken it too far with their recruitment process and how they are chosen. Also I dislike the fact that all the applicant are somehow super children who are not even teenagers it just seems silly and over the top, to have kids killing T - rexes, and thats just to qualify to train they still might not even be a space marine lol. The 30k method seems much more feasible and realistic, well at least believable. Also does anyone have examples of the loyalist legions having traitors? any sources or specific stories?. Me and my brother and nephew are starting 30k but all wanna be loyalists, I would like a reason to fight them at least in a narrative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The original Lore is definitely better in the points you raised. What's even more confusing is that the original lore is still the correct one as per the latest Marine codex, and is thusly Canon. I don't know why FW felt the need to re-write some of this.... And do so without consulting the 40k writers? The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) My biggest issue with the HH Lore is that Space Marines are not really super warriors like described in the 40k lore, but simply slightly stronger humans who die as easily as Guardsmen. The casualties suffered by the Ultras on Calth were so severe and quick it kind of spits on the idea of a 40k Chapter being able to survive for 10 millennia as it's so easy to kill the whole lot. I'm invested in 30k for the model quality and tighter rules ahead of the lore, which is admittedly presented very nicely but is too contradicting to the established canon. The reason for the high casualties in 30k is because they are fighting other astartes constantly. And massive quantities of them. There have been many of examples of the astartes in 30k survivng incredible things Case in point, Morturg, who just wouldn't bloody die :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The original Lore is definitely better in the points you raised. What's even more confusing is that the original lore is still the correct one as per the latest Marine codex, and is thusly Canon. I don't know why FW felt the need to re-write some of this.... And do so without consulting the 40k writers? The latest Marine codex was released AFTER Tempest, yet it explicitly describes the Ultras being split into 25 chapters initially, confirming the 25k strong Legion (Which was the largest by far) My biggest issue with the HH Lore is that Space Marines are not really super warriors like described in the 40k lore, but simply slightly stronger humans who die as easily as Guardsmen. The casualties suffered by the Ultras on Calth were so severe and quick it kind of spits on the idea of a 40k Chapter being able to survive for 10 millennia as it's so easy to kill the whole lot. I'm invested in 30k for the model quality and tighter rules ahead of the lore, which is admittedly presented very nicely but is too contradicting to the established canon. The reason for the high casualties in 30k is because they are fighting other astartes constantly. And massive quantities of them. There have been many of examples of the astartes in 30k survivng incredible things Case in point, Morturg, who just wouldn't bloody die :D Tough bastard that one is Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Do not go gently into that good night, Legatus. Personally I like the introduction of a greyscale to the setting. Less black and white is a good thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Some changes are bound to happen. It's been ten thousand years. The events of the Heresy were traumatic, and probably caused many changes in the cultures of many chapters. I do agree, however, that some of the changes seem rather abrupt. And the Dark Angels still come across as losers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Not to mention, it's entirely possible that the first few black crusades and that huge Ork War could have seen the destruction of a lot of the second founding chapters. With so much lost, the guy that did the apocrypha could have not known many existed. And ishagu, I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think it said it was all of the second founding chapters in the book. Can you quote it? I had always thought it said that it was some of the known second founding chapters. Also, not all loyalists have had traitors yet. And not all of the "traitors" fought with Horus. As for the DA, it's a matter of scale. It was a huge amount, and had significant consequences, and the traitors *survived* with *their colors*. The hunt is a mix of their own personal shame, and a measure to make sure the loyalists are continuously slandered *after* it happened. Plus it happened after the heresy, meaning the imperial forces were probably a lot more likely to stamp out any chance of the whole thing happening. Everyone deals with their children in different ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If we assume that the second finding created 25 chapters from ultramarines and this happened at the end of the scouring this only means that the ultramarines had 25,000 marines after the heresy and scouring... Of course this doesn't add up because it has been said at least at one point that the number of space marines from the second founding till the 41st millennium has been relatively constant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Re: the Wolves I think that a lot of fans tend to exaggerate the "niceness" of the Space Wolves. They aren't nice. As far as I know it, they tend to have a little more respect for their serfs and don't make many of them into servitors, which is great. They have an anti-authoritarian streak, which means that sometimes they act compassionately when doing so irritates segments of the Imperium that they don't much like (ie. the Inquisition). And they really like to fight hand-to-hand and bolter-to-bolter, which means that they are more likely than - say - the Ultramarines to go into a planet and try to cleanse it than resort to exterminatus. But does that make them "nice" or any more heroic than anyone else? I don't think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If we assume that the second finding created 25 chapters from ultramarines and this happened at the end of the scouring this only means that the ultramarines had 25,000 marines after the heresy and scouring... Of course this doesn't add up because it has been said at least at one point that the number of space marines from the second founding till the 41st millennium has been relatively constant Which would mean 1,000,000 Space Marines at any one time. Assuming the statement is even generally true. Of course, there's always the possibility Chapters that have died out without the Imperium's knowing as well as recently turned Chapters are being counted in that statement. Of course, the setting has always told us that it carries the potential to be misinforming and that it is always biased. Not to mention the fact that the Imperium is constantly erasing its own history and then building it from scratch. I mean come on, how many times can you recall something from the top of your head before you start misremembering it? Now imagine if you could force yourself to forget while simultaneously destroying all reference material you have access to, and then having to rebuild your knowledge base with any encounters you might have with incomplete sections of the source material as well as second and third hand accounts. Heck, once upon a time, even the Space Marines were routinely mind-wiped by the Inquisition. Something that's fallen out of favor with the authors because it's hard to keep a consistent storyline if the main character can't remember the previous novel. And it really doesn't help when you have things like the Watchers in the Dark throwing in snippets that the Lion's alive, which is something even Grand Master Azrael doesn't know. So if all of that doesn't create inconsistencies, then I'll be darned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/#findComment-4220519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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