Things that made sense...

[Legatus]

Of course this doesn't add up because it has been said at least at one point that the number of space marines from the second founding till the 41st millennium has been relatively constant

 

Where had that been said? Since 2nd Edition we have the description of around 50 Chapters being created in 2nd Founding. Then there were around 24 additional Foundings. And now in the 41st millennium there are 1,000 Chapters.

 

Even in the Codex Grey Knights retcon/mistake it was said that about 400 Chapters were created during the 2nd Founding, so even then the number of Space Marines would have significantly increased from 31st to 41st millennium.

 

 

I think that a lot of fans tend to exaggerate the "niceness" of the Space Wolves. They aren't nice. As far as I know it, they tend to have a little more respect for their serfs and don't make many of them into servitors, which is great. They have an anti-authoritarian streak, which means that sometimes they act compassionately when doing so irritates segments of the Imperium that they don't much like (ie. the Inquisition). And they really like to fight hand-to-hand and bolter-to-bolter, which means that they are more likely than - say - the Ultramarines to go into a planet and try to cleanse it than resort to exterminatus. But does that make them "nice" or any more heroic than anyone else? I don't think so.

 

But then there is stuff like this:

 

"Legendary Leader: Logan Grimnar is probably the most highly respected and best loved warrior in the entire galaxy. Only the enemies of the Imperium fear his name. Because of this, once per battle Logan can call on all those nearby to redouble their efforts and attack with all of their might. When he does this, all friendly models within 12" of Logan, whether they belong to the Space Wolves or not, get a +1 attack bonus for the rest of the turn."

- 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 27

[Canadian_F_H]

Well that's the point isn't it... Intentionally unclear and inconsistent.

[CaptainStabby]

Re: the Wolves

 

I think that a lot of fans tend to exaggerate the "niceness" of the Space Wolves. They aren't nice. As far as I know it, they tend to have a little more respect for their serfs and don't make many of them into servitors, which is great. They have an anti-authoritarian streak, which means that sometimes they act compassionately when doing so irritates segments of the Imperium that they don't much like (ie. the Inquisition). And they really like to fight hand-to-hand and bolter-to-bolter, which means that they are more likely than - say - the Ultramarines to go into a planet and try to cleanse it than resort to exterminatus. But does that make them "nice" or any more heroic than anyone else? I don't think so.

 

Wolves really do, in most of the fiction anyhow, follow the whole "noble savage" trope. They're basically Conan marines.  (With no disrespect meant to Executioners who are LITERALLY ConanMarines)

[Ishagu]

Marine numbers have definitely grown over the 10k years between the first founding and the present 40k.

 

The Forgeworld retcon doesn't work with existing 40k lore.

[ElectricPaladin]

Right. I didn't mean to say that the Wolves are never nice and have no heroic qualities. You'll note that characters like Dante have similar qualities. Logan is loved and admired by many in the Imperium... but that doesn't mean that the 40k Wolves are a total departure from the savagery of the 30k Wolves.

[CaptainStabby]

Yeah, I think that's the thing that gets lost, their code of honour is brutal and savage, but in many ways it comes across as more "honest" than say a knightly code of some sort for example. There's a REH quote that kinda sums it up for me, and imo he's kinda the master of the trope we are talking about.

 

"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

 

So while a Wolf may come across as nice, or friendly to someone who hasn't given offense, he's really only a breath away from all kinds of stabbymurder if you press the wrong button. That probably holds true for every Legion really though, just with different guidelines based on culture and tradition.

[Skalpynock]

Surprisingly I agree with a fair bit of what's listed in OP, despite my usual not-agreement with Legatus here.

The Nikæa point I'm still not set on, mostly because I rarely care about psykers. Still, makes far more sense to send the Wolves if they have actually done something wrong as a legion, rather than just Magnus ing up.

Sigismund being originally a line trooper is a new concept to me (old fluff is quite hard to find when you don't know what you're after), but one that fits better in my mind.

The wolves being nice to the common man... well there I think it's the original fluff that didn't make much sense.

Pre-Primarch legions is definitely what I most agree with. Why the hell did the Alpha Legion have to be even more convoluted pre-Alpharius than once they got him? If the Warborn were so great and adaptable from the get-go, why even bother with Guilliman at all? If the Night Lords were initially so bloody-handed, where has their degeneracy into madness gone? The Pale Nomads, Dusk Raiders, and in a lesser measure the Corpse Grinders show the divergences between Terran and Homeworld astartes. These three? I don't see any.

[CaptainStabby]

 

 

Pre-Primarch legions is definitely what I most agree with. Why the hell did the Alpha Legion have to be even more convoluted pre-Alpharius than once they got him? If the Warborn were so great and adaptable from the get-go, why even bother with Guilliman at all? If the Night Lords were initially so bloody-handed, where has their degeneracy into madness gone? The Pale Nomads, Dusk Raiders, and in a lesser measure the Corpse Grinders show the divergences between Terran and Homeworld astartes. These three? I don't see any.

 

I'm so on board with this. To me it always made sense that a Pre Primarch Legion was effective but unrefined, when the Primarch was added they really would come into their own and their true potential is realized. In the cases of the Traitors, adding that refinement was a bad thing, thus the Heresy et al.

[ElectricPaladin]

To be fair, there's a bit of "as above so below" and "once together always together" magic. The legions were made with samples of their primarchs' DNA - this influenced their character far more than it would in any hard sci-fi setting or according to any realistic understanding of DNA. And when the Traitor Primarchs "sold their souls" to the Chaos Gods, they unleashed a curse that somehow followed through DNA, infecting even individual Astartes who might not have gone so willingly. Even in 40k, you have chapters that are followed by dark rumors of relationship to the traitor legions, and seem susceptible to certain kinds of corruption as a result. 40k is science fantasy.

[Legatus]

I didn't mean to say that the Wolves are never nice and have no heroic qualities. You'll note that characters like Dante have similar qualities. Logan is loved and admired by many in the Imperium... but that doesn't mean that the 40k Wolves are a total departure from the savagery of the 30k Wolves.

 

There was also the episode where the 40K Space Wolves get into a quarrel with the Administratum (sometimes changed to "the Inquisition", because that's so much more badass) because they were annihilating the soldiers that had been fighting in the First War for Armageddon.

 

The Space Wolves have allways been the people's heroes. Standing up to the authorities, but heroically looking out for the little guy.

[CaptainStabby]

Sure, and I get that's the trope they have run with. For me I much prefer the idea that folks like Garro are watching the decline/change of their legion and unable to stop it, rather than being the mary sue that is "broken" because their genetic imprint didn't work or whatever. I guess it amounts to the same thing in the end.

[ElectricPaladin]

 

I didn't mean to say that the Wolves are never nice and have no heroic qualities. You'll note that characters like Dante have similar qualities. Logan is loved and admired by many in the Imperium... but that doesn't mean that the 40k Wolves are a total departure from the savagery of the 30k Wolves.

 

There was also the episode where the 40K Space Wolves get into a quarrel with the Administratum (sometimes changed to "the Inquisition", because that's so much more badass) because they were annihilating the soldiers that had been fighting in the First War for Armageddon.

 

The Space Wolves have allways been the people's heroes. Standing up to the authorities, but heroically looking out for the little guy.

 

But in a shallow "gr... me big hero" sort of way. It's not like they're actually about to go to war to change the status quo in the Imperium or anything. They just get twitchy when they are forced to watch injustice.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'd agree with most of these. In particular the 'loyalist Traitors' thing. That's a Pandora's Box FW should've left well alone from imo. There are two I don't really have a problem with. The Sigismund one, because it's entirely fitting the number 2 in the VII Legion is also it;s most dangerous fighter, given how 'asskicking equals authority' the setting tends to be. Also the 'Ultramarines learned of the Heresy' thing. That just seems to be an unavoidable spin off from the decision to make the HH a 7 year war and a 'setting', rather than the shorter war we'd been told about before. Now you could say that they should've left the Heresy simple: Prospero, Istvaan, Terra, Scouring, and there'd be an argument to be made in its favour. But they could hardly leave the XIII in the dark for all 7 years of the Heresy, especially given the need to work in the attack on Calth. Of course, the 'Imperium Secundus' thing is a whole new can of worms, but there needed to be something happening to the Ultras.

Two more 'bad' lore changes:

The Alpha Legion. Went from competent 'soldier Marines' with a chip on their shoulder that were almost a complete subversion to the standard 40k 'swords and heroes' shtick to the current 'Everyone's Alpharius', RG-infiltrating cavalcade of Mary Sue tendencies.

Pertuarbo decimating his Legion on taking command for the 'crime' of not being the bestest of all the Legions. What the FW?

One 'good' change:

The changes done to the 30k Wolves do answer an old question about the Heresy narrative, 'Why was Russ sent to Prospero?'. It never used to make sense, either the Emperor wants his Son killed for the crime of telling Dad that the Golden Boy wasn't so Golden (which is unbelievably petty, even for The Emperor) or The Emperor sent a Primarch that didn't like sorcery and had an axe to grind with Magnus to arrest him (which is stupid, of course Russ will be looking for a fight). Now we have a far better explanation, Russ would have preferred not to fight his brother, but the Wolves were sent because they were reliable (remember Astartes vs Astartes combat is anathema to the majority of Legions at this time). An inter-Legion war was always a possibility at Prospero and the VI were the one Legion that could be relied on, if war was necessary. to not hesitate and prosecute the campaign against a brother Legion. Of course Horus did throw a spanner in the works with the order changes, but the logic behind sending Russ in the new fluff is far sounder imo.

[CaptainStabby]

I would also argue that the Wolves did that because killing people who had fought and won defending their own planet offended their sense of honour, and had very little to do with helping the "little guy". Have the inquisition start killing citizens who refused to fight and cowered in their hive during a fight with Chaos and I'd bet you get a very different response from the Wolves. Or at least that's how it _should_ be written given how they are generally presented.

 

 

 

But in a shallow "gr... me big hero" sort of way. It's not like they're actually about to go to war to change the status quo in the Imperium or anything. They just get twitchy when they are forced to watch injustice.

 

 

Oh, I dunno... I'd say beheading the Grey Knight chapter master is pretty much a declaration of war.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Oh, I dunno... I'd say beheading the Grey Knight chapter master is pretty much a declaration of war.

In retaliation for an unprovoked attack on Grimnar's ship under a flag of truce. The Emperor's Gift makes it abundantly clear, the Wolves didn't start the shooting war in that altercation. The GKs/Inquisition declared the war, the Wolves responded in kind.

[Ishagu]

No doubt the Wolves came out looking better in that conflict.

[Legionary Pallas]

No doubt the Wolves came out looking better in that conflict.

Scars, bruises & broken noses are standard uniform in the Wolves.

[CaptainStabby]

 

Oh, I dunno... I'd say beheading the Grey Knight chapter master is pretty much a declaration of war.

In retaliation for an unprovoked attack on Grimnar's ship under a flag of truce. The Emperor's Gift makes it abundantly clear, the Wolves didn't start the shooting war in that altercation. The GKs/Inquisition declared the war, the Wolves responded in kind.

 

I'm aware, and I'm perfectly on board with it. I was just meaning the comment up further about them not being willing to go to war with the powers that be. :D

 

It's even better because I have a good friend who has been a Grey Knight player in some form or another since 2E, it's always fun to point out to him that my legion has a Chapter Master kill on his. I may be a horrible person.

[Legatus]

There are two I don't really have a problem with. The Sigismund one, because it's entirely fitting the number 2 in the VII Legion is also it;s most dangerous fighter, given how 'asskicking equals authority' the setting tends to be.

Of course, it makes sense that the Legion's second highest rankes individual would also be the second strongest fighter. Where it gets strange is how the Chapter founded by the "second highest" from the originial Imperial Fists Legion is built around traditions and doctrines that are nothing like the ones from the Imperial Fists Legion. The Imperial Fists have a preference for bolter weaponry and bunker busting, the Black Templar squads often prefer swords over boltguns and cannot wait to storm the enemy positions. And now supposedly the "Emperor's Champion" in 30K was the highest commanding officer under the Primarch, yet in the Black Templars the Emperor's Champion cannot be the armies commander in most rule sets. All of that makes more sense if the original "Emperor's Champion" had been a simple sword fighter, who was then honoured in creating his own Chapter, resulting in very different doctrines to the Imperial Fists and a continuation of the "Champion" role as purely a duelist.

Sigismund being originally a line trooper is a new concept to me (old fluff is quite hard to find when you don't know what you're after), but one that fits better in my mind.

A short story to that effect was printed in a White Dwarf in early 3rd Edition. It was later reprinted in the 2003 'Chapter Approved' book, on page 76. Here an excerpt:

"Three heavy explosions nearby shook the crumbling walls. Chunks of debris rained down onto the worn flags around where Brother Sigismund of the Imperial Fists knelt, his black power sword raised hilt-first in supplication. Neither he nor Chaplain Akrida flinched, nor the assembled squad of Battle Brothers. Such things were to be expected this close to the traitors' breakthrough. Chaplain Akrida placed the last purity seal upon the Imperial Fists Space Marine's blackened power armour. Brother Sigismund bowed his head once more before rising to his armoured feet. As one, the assembled Space Marines turned and filed into the Rhino waiting outside.

The Rhino was as cramped as it was noisy, rattling over rubble and shell holes towards the breach. Brother Sigismund gazed at the worn, pinched looking faces of his fellow Space Marines, warriors of the Imperial Fists Legion who had fought night and day for weeks defending the Imperial Palace against the traitor Legions. His heart swelled with pride that Rogal Dorn himself, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, had chosen Sigismund to be a champion of the Emperor. Only one thing disturbed him.

"Father Akrida, though I am humbled by the honour bestowed upon me, it still seems wrong to obscure the sacred colours of the Legion."

"Fear not Brother Sigismund, Dorn himself ordered it to be so. Your heraldry has been changed to black to show that you serve the Emperor himself directly, as do myself and my fellow chaplains. As such you are marked out in the sight of the Emperor."

Before Sigismund could reply the Rhino lurched to a halt. The Imperial Fists clamped on helmets and hefted their bolters with practiced ease, leaping out of the access doors without hesitation."

The Alpha Legion. Went from competent 'soldier Marines' with a chip on their shoulder that were almost a complete subversion to the standard 40k 'swords and heroes' shtick to the current 'Everyone's Alpharius', RG-infiltrating cavalcade of Mary Sue tendencies.

Pertuarbo decimating his Legion on taking command for the 'crime' of not being the bestest of all the Legions. What the FW?

I agree that the "old" Alpha Legion was preferable. A highly disciplined force pressuring the enemy with relentless attacks. How GW/BL/FW want to turn the Alpha Legion (and the Raven Guard as well) into stealthy sneaky agents even though they are 8 foot heavy armoured troopers with grenade rifles makes so little sense.

The thing with the Iron Warriors is perhaps more of an unwelcome new bit of lore, not so much a "change". I would say it falls into the same category as Jonson beheading one of his own Chaplains in a fit of rage.

When Angron rage-killed most of his Captains that would similarly perhaps have been a point where the Emperor or the World Eaters Legion might possibly have decided that perhaps he was not fit for command. But at least it was more in character.

[Calas Typhon]

The thing with the Iron Warriors is perhaps more of an unwelcome new bit of lore, not so much a "change". I would say it falls into the same category as Jonson beheading one of his own Chaplains in a fit of rage.

 

You see, I don't believe that Perturabo's decimation of the IV was a bad or unwelcome within the fluff. It was a pretty strong point in how the Legion performed in the rest of the Grand Crusade and how they had changed from what they were to the Iron hearted, bitter and brutalized army they become. That piece of fluff really set the scene for the Iron Warriors!.. which was then thrown away with the "NOBODY CARES ABOUT ME" in Angel Exterminatus. That in my opinion is not in the same category as the Lion being awkward and flicking the Chaplains face off.

[Rob P]

Sigismund was shown in Horus Rising as a realist compared to the idealist Dorn.

 

Sigismund and Dorn have a fall out over the events in The Crimson Fist/Templar which leaves Dorn telling Sigismund that he's not his son.

 

Some point thereafter Sigismund does his whole 'Diomedes' thing during the Siege of Terra and he eventually becomes the High Marshall of the Black Templars. 

 

I don't see what the issue is.

 

If you meld in the story of him becoming a soldier of the Emperor this adds to the idea that the Black Templars are the only 'chapter' continuing the great crusade.

[Wade Garrett]

Perturabo decimating the Fourth...

 

1. "My Legion is not the best, therefore I will kill a tenth of them chosen at random".

 

2. 1/10 of Iron Warriors killed off, Legion continues to be outperformed by the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, and Dark Angels.

 

*sarcastic applause* Good job, Pert.

 

And the Emperor let THIS chucklehead keep leading a hundred thousand supersoldiers after that display of blithering stupidity. Ye gods.

 

Even Angron was a better Primarch that that.

[Lord Blackwood]

Perturabo decimating the Fourth...

 

1. "My Legion is not the best, therefore I will kill a tenth of them chosen at random".

 

2. 1/10 of Iron Warriors killed off, Legion continues to be outperformed by the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, and Dark Angels.

 

*sarcastic applause* Good job, Pert.

 

And the Emperor let THIS chucklehead keep leading a hundred thousand supersoldiers after that display of blithering stupidity. Ye gods.

 

Even Angron was a better Primarch that that.

 

I  dunno  , angron pretty much butchered every officer that came to see him after he was found up until Khârn who was captain of the 8th assault company  

 

Also ... butchers nails into most of his boys was a thing 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Perturabo decimating the Fourth...

 

1. "My Legion is not the best, therefore I will kill a tenth of them chosen at random".

 

2. 1/10 of Iron Warriors killed off, Legion continues to be outperformed by the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, and Dark Angels.

 

*sarcastic applause* Good job, Pert.

 

And the Emperor let THIS chucklehead keep leading a hundred thousand supersoldiers after that display of blithering stupidity. Ye gods.

 

Even Angron was a better Primarch that that.

I dunno , angron pretty much butchered every officer that came to see him after he was found up until Khârn who was captain of the 8th assault company

 

Also ... butchers nails into most of his boys was a thing

Angron's initial shake up of the XII's command structure resulted in casualties that were, at best, barely into double digits, while he was in the throes of screaming MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS ARE DEEEAAAAD rage.

 

It's hardly comparable to Perturabo killing a tenth of his Legion in cold blood because of the compelling logic of "I AM REALLY BUTTHURT YOU'RE NOT THE ULTRAMARINES".

[Lord Blackwood]

 

Angron's initial shake up of the XII's command structure resulted in casualties that were, at best, barely into double digits, while he was in the throes of screaming MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS ARE DEEEAAAAD rage.

 

It's hardly comparable to Perturabo killing a tenth of his Legion in cold blood because of the compelling logic of "I AM REALLY BUTTHURT YOU'RE NOT THE ULTRAMARINES".

 

But the subsequent implantation of the butchers nails in his legionaries  was considerably worse than just killing off a 10th of them 

 

I remember in I think betrayer someone ( argel tal if I remember correctly )  asks  Khârn why  they did that to themselves and Khârn says something along the lines of they wanted  thier father to love them or something to try and bring them closer to him and it didint work 

 

Its like a living death really because every world eater KNOWS what the Butchers nails dose to them and they did it willingly for a father who could really care less.

 

Hell if anything  Angron's style of warfare and what he turned the legion into pretty much accounted for more casualties than 10 %   Granted a lot of this  is due to angron himself being broken