Things that made sense...

[Brother Heinrich]

I might be alone in this, but I like a lot of the changes and frankly I don't feel they went far enough. People and the designers of the 30k/40k lore often fail to comprehend the sheer magnitude of the galaxy. Even if all 20 legions were around 250,000 strong that's still a drop in the cosmic ocean and nowhere near enough to contend with the vast array of alien and renegade human empires of the time. 

 

Yes I know the Imperial Army was a massive augment to this, however the Legions seem to be the only ones capable of doing any heavy lifting. If this were not the case then humanity could just rely on regular flesh and blood mortals to reconquer the galaxy, instead time and time again mankind's advancement was due solely to Legion actions. 

 

Because of this, and because of the ability to more rapidly produce, equip, and arm Legionnaires, each Legion should number in the millions, spread out across thousands of Expeditionary Fleets. This is the only plausible way that any of the Legions that fight at Terra could sustain the losses they did (both throughout the war and at the siege) and still be left with thousands of survivors in aftermath (both Traitor and Loyalist).

 

++++

 

As for some of the other things, I agree that the Dark Angels are looking less and less "heretical" in light of the Scars' schism and the fact that Raven Guard Marines seem to go traitor at the drop of a hat. However I wouldn't say "all the loyalists have traitor elements". I have yet to see willing devotion to Horus from any of the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines.

 

The Vylka Fenryka lore is actually a lot more awesome now minus the willful ignorance and denial of their own use of psychic powers. That part is just asinine to me. If it's from the warp, and you do it with your mind, it's a psychic power. 

 

++++

 

In the end there's some positives and negatives to the newer fluff tweaks, I feel a large amount of the inconsistencies are due to FW being forced to write within the rough framework of 40k lore. If they were given free reign I have faith they would construct an altogether more plausible and functioning framework. As is they're doing the best with what they've got.

[Calas Typhon]

Perturabo decimating the Fourth...

 

1. "My Legion is not the best, therefore I will kill a tenth of them chosen at random".

 

2. 1/10 of Iron Warriors killed off, Legion continues to be outperformed by the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus, and Dark Angels.

 

*sarcastic applause* Good job, Pert.

 

And the Emperor let THIS chucklehead keep leading a hundred thousand supersoldiers after that display of blithering stupidity. Ye gods.

 

Even Angron was a better Primarch that that.

 

The thing is you cant exactly claim they were outperformed if you are talking about the amount of conflicts completed and worlds brought to compliance because of their role and the wars they were sent to. Said chucklehead after decimation of his legion faced some of the most brutal conflicts of the GC and won all at the head of the IVth.

 

The Decimation worked from his standpoint. It might not have been the best for their minds though.

 

Angron was broken, he fought for himself during the latter stages and broke his legion, so can hardly be compared to a Legion who stood as solid as Iron.

[Fire Golem]

But then Perturabos decimation of the legion probably came from his upbringing too. It was probably standard to him. His adopted father was called the Tyrant of Olympia...

[Wade Garrett]

The thing is you cant exactly claim they were outperformed if you are talking about the amount of conflicts completed and worlds brought to compliance because of their role and the wars they were sent to. Said chucklehead after decimation of his legion faced some of the most brutal conflicts of the GC and won all at the head of the IVth.

 

The Decimation worked from his standpoint. It might not have been the best for their minds though.

The fact that they won tough battles after the Decimation doesn't mean diddly. The World Eaters won some of the most brutal battles of the GC after Angron and the Nails.

 

"Perturabo kills a tenth of his Legion because they're not the best Legion. Now they're the best."

 

"But why are they the best?"

 

"Because Perturabo killed a tenth of them so they'd be the best."

 

Well, you can't argue with THAT logic.

[Ishagu]

So glad I'm an Ultramarine :-P

[Calas Typhon]

 

The thing is you cant exactly claim they were outperformed if you are talking about the amount of conflicts completed and worlds brought to compliance because of their role and the wars they were sent to. Said chucklehead after decimation of his legion faced some of the most brutal conflicts of the GC and won all at the head of the IVth.

 

The Decimation worked from his standpoint. It might not have been the best for their minds though.

The fact that they won tough battles after the Decimation doesn't mean diddly. The World Eaters won some of the most brutal battles of the GC after Angron and the Nails.

 

"Perturabo kills a tenth of his Legion because they're not the best Legion. Now they're the best."

 

"But why are they the best?"

 

"Because Perturabo killed a tenth of them so they'd be the best."

 

Well, you can't argue with THAT logic.

 

 

The point was that the Decimation obviously did what Perturabo was looking for it to do, it certainly helped with the battling the Black Judges and other conflicts I am sure.

 

To expand, the decimation was to solidify the point that there would be no price in failure which he believed the Legion had, and that he would be ruthless with those that failed, he expected the best from his Legion and with it, he got the best from them. It shaped the Iron Warriors into the cold brutal Legion they become with the coming of the Primarch and it drove them harder to success. 

 

The fact that they won battles after the decimation does mean diddly, because of the nature of the battles they won and the change of attitude to warfare. as referenced above.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Some of these threads (ranking ones especially;lore, characters etc...) just seem like massive flame baits to me. People generally aren't going to be convinced to like certain portions of the fluff better so it doesn't really foster a discussion

[Legatus]

There are many changes I don't appreciate ('Tempest' has pretty much sealed the deal that I will never play 30K), but they are not really things that "don't make sense" in the way of the examples in the OP.

 

I don't like that the Ultramarines Legion is now said to have grown so large not just because of low casualties and effective recruitment (as previously claimed) but because their genetic material simply allowed for faster Marine production that the other Legions.

 

I don't like that the core doctrine of the Ultramarines is now "drown the enemy in bodies".

 

I don't like that they only "won" on Calth by capturing the super defense grid, which then scared off the Word Bearers.

 

I don't like that the Ultramarines Legion is organised nothing at all like how Guilliman would later organise the Chapters. Ok, this one kinda "makes no sense" again. You would expect the Ultramarines Legion, after two centuries of evolving, to fight closer to how the later Chapters would fight. Yet instead of making the Ultramarines Legion in 'Tempest' more like the later Chapters, FW gave them more units that will then not be seen included in the Codex Astartes.

 

 

Some of these threads (ranking ones especially;lore, characters etc...) just seem like massive flame baits to me. People generally aren't going to be convinced to like certain portions of the fluff better so it doesn't really foster a discussion

 

Though I think there is some value in pointing out that some things were in fact changed in the HH series, and were described differently in previous sources. Whether one welcomes such changes is then a matter of personal taste. Whether the changes make more or less sense than the previous account can reasonably be debated.

[Fire Golem]

The Ultramarines are organised similar to the codex though. 'the operational doctrines of the XIIIth favoured tactical diversity and the application of overwhelming force. As a reflection of this, the legion maintained relatively few specialist companies, instead choosing to spread those units which maintained large stocks of non standard equipment and munitions evenly throughout the various companies of the legion... Each chapter featured a proportionate mix of tactical and assault units, armour and artillery as well as gunships and transports'.

 

That seems pretty similar to the structure of Chapters in the Codex. Yeah their units aren't exactly the same but then everything is pretty much covered... Legion Vet Squads are built basically like Tac Squads in 40k for example. And the units they did get aren't too far off things from 40k. Locatarus aren't too far off Vanguard Vets. Suzerians aren't too dissimilar to Honour Guard.

 

Plus the Codex wasn't finished til after the heresy was over so there's many reasons why things could have changed from the way the UM were made up before the heresy to the Codex after the heresy.

[Legatus]

FW could have done so many simple things to adapt the Legion list for the Ultramarines, like shifting Assault Squads from 'Troops' to 'Fast Attack', a slight change in the Tactical squad (either enabling special/heavy options, or allowing Tactical Veterans as Troops, perhaps sans the "Veteran" abilities and with one less attack). Perhaps even allow for Heavy Support squads with fewer heavy weapons. Badda boom, there you have a "pre-Codex" army.

 

Instead, FW gave them "devastator Terminators", which wont make it into the Codex, and an all-shield Honour Guard, which is less efficient than the Honour Guard from the Codex Space Marines, but with better WS. Perhaps after two hundred years Guilliman had not quite concluded that shields for power armoured units are not as effective, and it needed the Heresy to finally convince him.

[Lord Blackwood]

There are many changes I don't appreciate ('Tempest' has pretty much sealed the deal that I will never play 30K), but they are not really things that "don't make sense" in the way of the examples in the OP.

 

I don't like that the Ultramarines Legion is now said to have grown so large not just because of low casualties and effective recruitment (as previously claimed) but because their genetic material simply allowed for faster Marine production that the other Legions.

 

I don't like that the core doctrine of the Ultramarines is now "drown the enemy in bodies".

 

I don't like that they only "won" on Calth by capturing the super defense grid, which then scared off the Word Bearers.

 

I don't like that the Ultramarines Legion is organised nothing at all like how Guilliman would later organise the Chapters. Ok, this one kinda "makes no sense" again. You would expect the Ultramarines Legion, after two centuries of evolving, to fight closer to how the later Chapters would fight. Yet instead of making the Ultramarines Legion in 'Tempest' more like the later Chapters, FW gave them more units that will then not be seen included in the Codex Astartes.

 

 

Some of these threads (ranking ones especially;lore, characters etc...) just seem like massive flame baits to me. People generally aren't going to be convinced to like certain portions of the fluff better so it doesn't really foster a discussion

 

Though I think there is some value in pointing out that some things were in fact changed in the HH series, and were described differently in previous sources. Whether one welcomes such changes is then a matter of personal taste. Whether the changes make more or less sense than the previous account can reasonably be debated.

Didint you make a thread on Tempest before ? 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sure making a neutral compilation of changes between new and old is one thing. But your first post wasn't neutral, it was all about that the changes were negative. When the op to a thread says "let's make a list of bad changes" it tends to strangle any real back and forth as the entire context is about things being bad. It's fair to say that your opinion won't change as you've posted the same things in multiple other places, so what kind of constructive discussion is going to come out of a highly slanted thread

[Legatus]

Didint you make a thread on Tempest before ?

 

It was kind of a big release, concerning my favourite Chapter/Legion, wasn't it?

 

As I said, most of the changes made in 'Tempest' are not things that "make no sense" for the purpose of this thread. The exception being FWs decision to not model the Ultramarines Legion army list after the Codex army list, and instead give them special units they wont have later in the Codex. Although then I guess this is not really a "change", and more a case of dismissing the previous material in their development of the Ultramarines army list.

 

 

Sure making a neutral compilation of changes between new and old is one thing. But your first post wasn't neutral, it was all about that the changes were negative.

 

I framed the list in the context of the changes being less logically conclusive than the previous descriptions had been. I then also added this disclaimer:

 

"To me these are almost inevitably changes for the worse, but often enough I see people appreciating the changes for one reason or another."

 

Which I'd say is fair enough.

 

Several posters have already chimed in expressing that they liked some of those changes, others have listed a few changes they noticed themselves.

 

Which reminds me that I could perhaps collect them in the OP.

[Terminus]

 

- ALL 30K loyal Legions have traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor (??) --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past

 

Did I forget anything noteworthy? Do you like the changes, or perhaps like individual ones but not others?

+ Name the traitor Imperial Fist or face me in a duel to the death, heretic +

 

Rogal Dorn. He cracked under pressure, and failure in one's duty is damnation in the eyes of the Emperor. What you gotta say now, yellow-belly?

[Kol Saresk]

A Failure is not a Traitor. Because a Traitor has to succeed at betrayal. :P

[Leif Bearclaw]

FW could have done so many simple things to adapt the Legion list for the Ultramarines, like shifting Assault Squads from 'Troops' to 'Fast Attack', a slight change in the Tactical squad (either enabling special/heavy options, or allowing Tactical Veterans as Troops, perhaps sans the "Veteran" abilities and with one less attack). Perhaps even allow for Heavy Support squads with fewer heavy weapons. Badda boom, there you have a "pre-Codex" army.

 

 

See, that just sounds like a Codex army to me, not much 'pre' there. Isn't a lot of the point of the Codex that it represented a new path for the Astartes? Away from the set piece mass battles of the Legiones Astartes (although the writers, being silly, still have 40 Marines doing this all the damn time) and towards the spec ops scalpel of The Army of The Imperium, the Adeptus Astartes. Why would the Heresy era XIII be structured (uniquely) so similarly to the later doctrine, when there was no reason for said doctrine to exist yet?

[Brofist]

I'm also a fan of the new fluff, mostly. It makes things more morally grey and brings a better sense of scale with it. I like that it's less pulp sci fi and a bit more grounded.

[SkimaskMohawk]

OP you may have prefaced the list with saying others like it, but the thread is called "things that made sense..." as well as having a lot of the current fluff marked by question marks when you feel it doesn't make sense. Also the list itself isn't showcasing the previous change to the new one, it's solely meant to show disparity between the fluff now. Pretty much the farthest thing from neutral analysis and only serves to incense people who disagree

[Ishagu]

We're not simply discussing old, Retconned fluff here.

There are disparities between current books

[Lord Blackwood]

 

Didint you make a thread on Tempest before ?

 

It was kind of a big release, concerning my favourite Chapter/Legion, wasn't it?

 

As I said, most of the changes made in 'Tempest' are not things that "make no sense" for the purpose of this thread. The exception being FWs decision to not model the Ultramarines Legion army list after the Codex army list, and instead give them special units they wont have later in the Codex. Although then I guess this is not really a "change", and more a case of dismissing the previous material in their development of the Ultramarines army list.

 

 

Yea but the  overall conclusion of that thread was you  refusing to accept any arguments counter to your points and repeating your points on how  upsetting you found the fluff.  Then in this post your bringing up the whole  UM aren't the way I envisioned them / dont reflect the appropriate fluff from generations past thing again  while peppering in some other legions to act as a smokescreen for you to continue bashing what we have now.   

 

I certainly dont mean this as a personal attack but I dont understand what your overall goal is by repeating your gripes with the Ultramarine fluff changes. The new fluff is just that New.  Its the direction they are going and if that isint a direction you like well yer not going to play 30k so focus on the 40k fluff and the codex astartes stuff that you actually enjoy?

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Funnily enough to me when it comes to Sigismund  and the Future Black Templars  we just need more information , we dont know  exactly what happened with Sigismund , we know he was disowned by Dorn but we also know eventually he will become the Emperors Champion. When he gets his own chapter he becomes the first High Marshall of the Black Templar's an office of leadership which dose continue to be the  overall highest office of leadership in the chapter. 

 

The Templar Brethren in crunch ( and in thier fluff entry in HH book 3 )  speak to a unit that is very reminiscent of the Black Templar way of War , given that Sigismund commanded this company its not terribly hard to believe that , that particular way of war  was what the chapter would embrace. 

 

Needless to say theres a whole big gap of things we dont know as a result of Forgeworld and Black Library re writing the fluff and I eagerly look forward to seeing where it goes. 

[Kastor Krieg]

 

 

- ALL 30K loyal Legions have traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor (??) --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past

 

Did I forget anything noteworthy? Do you like the changes, or perhaps like individual ones but not others?

+ Name the traitor Imperial Fist or face me in a duel to the death, heretic +

 

Rogal Dorn. He cracked under pressure, and failure in one's duty is damnation in the eyes of the Emperor. What you gotta say now, yellow-belly?

 

BS strawman argument. No Imperial Fist is a traitor in Horus Heresy, not one. And attempting to call the Emperor's own Praetorian a traitor is just a pathetic trolling jab, weak and without a lick of sense.

 

Again, name ONE of the Seventh that went traitor and sided with Horus, because THAT was the OP's assertion - that ALL loyal Legions had traitors in their midst. Which is false and heretical.

[depthcharge12]

 

Oh, I dunno... I'd say beheading the Grey Knight chapter master is pretty much a declaration of war.

In retaliation for an unprovoked attack on Grimnar's ship under a flag of truce. The Emperor's Gift makes it abundantly clear, the Wolves didn't start the shooting war in that altercation. The GKs/Inquisition declared the war, the Wolves responded in kind.

No one's allowed to screw with the wolves, except us Dark Angels :yes:

 

That's why inquisitors go missing around us in 40k...because we honor the wolves ;)

[Canadian_F_H]

Besides which of course the ultramarines weren't like a post heresy codex compliant chapter... Those learns where learned as a result of the heresy and scouring... And the fw books haven't gotten that far yet...

[Saphrael]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but...

 

Again, name ONE of the Seventh that went traitor and sided with Horus, because THAT was the OP's assertion - that ALL loyal Legions had traitors in their midst. Which is false and heretical.

I read the OP's assertion to be more along the lines of "it's a big universe and you can do whatever you want with your hobby", rather than "there are clearly documented instances of all loyalist legions having some members turn traitor". In that sense, he's correct. At one point not that long ago there were no documented instances of any White Scars turning traitor. Who knows what the future holds for Dorn's little rays of sunshine?

 

BS strawman argument. No Imperial Fist is a traitor in Horus Heresy, not one. And attempting to call the Emperor's own Praetorian a traitor is just a pathetic trolling jab, weak and without a lick of sense.

Dorn may not have been a traitor, but he was definitely a failure. And in the Emperor's own words "And yet there is one sin far greater than betrayal, Ra. Failure."

 

*drops mic*

[Ioldanach]

Haven't we had all of these discussions before?

 

The background has never made sense, starting with Rogue Trader. It was a hodge podge of disparate ideas collected into a simmering cauldron. GW tried to bring things into line in the transition that started with 2nd edition, but players have complained about inconsistencies ever since that time. The internet has given everyone their own soapbox to complain loudly and unceasingly about the things they don't like.

 

So GW has heard the complaining and has taken steps to make things make sense, only now they don't make sense to those that forget that the old things didn't make sense.

 

What's the point?

 

Ultimately, the core principles of the setting remain the same. Small things have changed here and there. Those that put too much stock in those things see them as big things, but they're really just small things. The whole game setting is about an unimaginably vast galactic empire and the shadow reality of the Warp. It's also about an unimaginably vast span of time - the difference between the halcyon days of the Great Crusade and the modern era almost 9,000 years later. How one sees things depends upon what one sees and the angle (two different individuals can look at the exact same thing and see it in two completely different ways - one sees a jackalope and the other sees a chupacabra).

 

In a way, this discussion is a microcosm of the game setting - disparate points of view between those that participate in the hobby as well as the differences between "then" (viewed with some degree of bias by those that remember whichever "then" they prefer) and "now" (which is viewed as dystopian and forlorn).

 

In the end, when the changes/discrepancies/objectionable elements of the background get us down, we really need to take a step back, breathe deeply, adjust our perspective, and remember these words of wisdom: