Remus Ventanus. Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Let me put it this way: the old lore for 30k was imo, was a faint memory with few facts made by someone in the 40k universe. The new lore is what actually happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4220945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - ALL 30K loyal Legions have traitors among them --> some Dark Angels turn traitor (??) --> 40K Dark Angels are super secretive about their shameful past Did I forget anything noteworthy? Do you like the changes, or perhaps like individual ones but not others? + Name the traitor Imperial Fist or face me in a duel to the death, heretic + Rogal Dorn. He cracked under pressure, and failure in one's duty is damnation in the eyes of the Emperor. What you gotta say now, yellow-belly? BS strawman argument. No Imperial Fist is a traitor in Horus Heresy, not one. And attempting to call the Emperor's own Praetorian a traitor is just a pathetic trolling jab, weak and without a lick of sense. Again, name ONE of the Seventh that went traitor and sided with Horus, because THAT was the OP's assertion - that ALL loyal Legions had traitors in their midst. Which is false and heretical. Yes, the Seventh remains inviolate. We are Alpharius, and we approve of this message. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4220950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialIssue Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Let me put it this way: the old lore for 30k was imo, was a faint memory with few facts made by someone in the 40k universe. The new lore is what actually happened. Which is the main particular drawback to the whole setting I feel. I would have never wanted the Heresy to be brought fully to light, as it closes way more doors than it opens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I personally prefer the 'new' canon. Plus marines dying in droves is realistic, especially when fighting other marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 When trying to anchor your arguments in various points of the fluff, it is best not to choose points that haven't 'existed' for over 10+ years in a fictional universe where the fluff holds to the rule "nothing is true, everything is permitted." There's a nursery song about an unwise man building his house upon the sand... The powers that be look upon your second and third edition references and laugh. Grimdarkly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Let me put it this way: the old lore for 30k was imo, was a faint memory with few facts made by someone in the 40k universe. The new lore is what actually happened. Which is the main particular drawback to the whole setting I feel. I would have never wanted the Heresy to be brought fully to light, as it closes way more doors than it opens. And yet you still have Dark Angels who are drugged and mind conditioned to not even remember the Heresy is a thing, Ultramarines who still think Calth was a spiteful act by sore losers and not a calculated move, heck, the Ultramarines still think Ultranar was only ever eight worlds. Never mind the fact that most of the Inquisition thinks Renegade Chapters are Chaos Legions and the Imperium at large thinks the Heresy is a fairy tale, if they've even heard of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viridia Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 For the person(s) who were complaining about marines dying in droves; this is the Horus Heresy, where a regular skirmish makes the first day of the Somme look like a back-alley scrap. It's a time of volkites and titans, of massed Legion armour crushing the sand beneath their treads. It's the Apocalypse come early. As for the rest of it, my two penn'orth is that; - Legions consisting of hundreds of thousands makes more sense than 'mere' tens of thousands. - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). - The Dark Angels lost nearly half their legion to heresy (not even the White Scars suffered that). Tell me that that won't have a massive effect on how the post-Heresy Imperium is going to look at them if it ever came out. - The Rout are far cooler now. While I liked the 40k depiction, it tended towards comedy a bit too much. - The Ultras having an 'empire' of five hundred worlds (which we should remember probably includes moons and orbital habitats around non-habitable planets) makes sense since we're shown that Guilliman has a need to show that he can do Konor proud and because it's what he does. He makes things better for people. It's just that he's actually given the chance to build on his own interests unlike, say, Perturabo, who's stuck being a general and a warmongering version of Tony Stark rather than inventing what he wants. - Speaking of good old Pertie, what he does to the Corpse Grinders makes sense. He's not punishing them for not being the best; he's telling them that their hidebound thinking is a failure, and that failure is what is unacceptable to the Lord of Olympia. He just chose to do it in a way that he's been brought up to believe is the most appropriate, and that will get his message across immediately rather than spend years having to show them himself. - Having to spend years building up to the Siege of Terra makes a lot more sense, since FW and BL have done good work building up the immensity of trying to reforge a galaxy-spanning empire. Rome didn't fall in a day after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Dorn, a failure? You are deluded. Terra was fortified and defended. Mars was cleansed. Trying to cast the Emperor's sacrifice onto one of his loyal sons is as sign of your own weakness. Be silent or you will yield under the zeal of the Templar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). Blatant heretical lie! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). Blatant heretical lie! Maybe not Traitors, but I could definitely see some Black Shields. Especially if they're survivors of Phall who found themselves stranded with no support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). Blatant heretical lie!Maybe not Traitors, but I could definitely see some Black Shields. Especially if they're survivors of Phall who found themselves stranded with no support. The very same Black Shields that fight anonymously for the Throne? Somehow I doubt Fists would do that... unless they mistakenly followed Horus' orders first and then realised their grave error. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). Blatant heretical lie!Maybe not Traitors, but I could definitely see some Black Shields. Especially if they're survivors of Phall who found themselves stranded with no support. LA LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!!! Imperial Fists do indeed don the black. Under command of Sigismund (Great, courageous and manliest of men) of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - The VII Legion probably will have traitors at some point (We're not special). Blatant heretical lie!Maybe not Traitors, but I could definitely see some Black Shields. Especially if they're survivors of Phall who found themselves stranded with no support. The very same Black Shields that fight anonymously for the Throne? Somehow I doubt Fists would do that... unless they mistakenly followed Horus' orders first and then realised their grave error. I could be wrong, but IIRC, isn't the talk that Forgeworld is going to use the Black Shields to represent the Astartes who had..... "questionable" loyalties to either side during the Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Any 'questionable' loyalties are beaten out of them in boot camp. The Imperial Fists are just too stubborn to turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 - Speaking of good old Pertie, what he does to the Corpse Grinders makes sense. He's not punishing them for not being the best; he's telling them that their hidebound thinking is a failure, and that failure is what is unacceptable to the Lord of Olympia. He just chose to do it in a way that he's been brought up to believe is the most appropriate, and that will get his message across immediately rather than spend years having to show them himself. This. While the Edict of Decimation might have been an unwise act, the tactics of the Corpse Grinders (actually a simple "Is the wall breached? -> Throw soldiers at the wall" flowchart) were even more self-destructive, and they needed something to set their mind straight. Now, I'm not saying it was an intelligent decision, but it sure carried the point. For the worse, some might say. To which I wouldn't completely disagree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Dorn, a failure? You are deluded. Terra was fortified and defended. Mars was cleansed. Trying to cast the Emperor's sacrifice onto one of his loyal sons is as sign of your own weakness. Be silent or you will yield under the zeal of the Templar. LA LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!!! Imperial Fists do indeed don the black. Under command of Sigismund (Great, courageous and manliest of men) of course. Is there some kind of filter that would prevent people with "Black Templars" in Chapter Name taking part in discussion on this (or other HH) thread? It's getting really annoying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Is there some kind of filter that would prevent people with "Black Templars" in Chapter Name taking part in discussion on this (or other HH) thread? It's getting really annoying. Rendingon, if you want Fraters to offer posts more to your liking, explain your point or position in the discussion and be rational - don't passive-aggressively bait them. This thread is not exactly laid back as it is, don't introduce problems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Dorn, a failure? You are deluded. Terra was fortified and defended. Mars was cleansed. Trying to cast the Emperor's sacrifice onto one of his loyal sons is as sign of your own weakness. Be silent or you will yield under the zeal of the Templar. LA LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!!! Imperial Fists do indeed don the black. Under command of Sigismund (Great, courageous and manliest of men) of course. Is there some kind of filter that would prevent people with "Black Templars" in Chapter Name taking part in discussion on this (or other HH) thread? It's getting really annoying. Ophidium Gulf TK'er. Hey I am just in character... lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Alright folks, this one has gone on long enough to degenerate from an already shaky premise. We're all done here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315822-things-that-made-sense/page/4/#findComment-4221142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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