Help with deathstars

[Spagunk]

Blood angels don't get grav cannons or access to the skyhammer formation without using the SM codex.

I know but so what you can ally an SM Skyhammer formation. Alternatively jus load up on plasma cannons for extra lulz.

It's not even allying

Pedantry aside, there's no shame in taking a non-BA Formation/Imperial Knight/Assassin to supplement your force. It's fluffy (The Imperium campaigns together more often than not), it offers flexibility and it makes up the shortfalls in our Codex.

Aside from the fact that I don't have those codexes of course. 35-50 bucks for the codex plus associated models (150 for the Knight) is a bit hard to swallow.

Well without knowing what you have its not easy stumbling on something that would work and happen to be in your collection, but I guess you could always try charging into the unit with a thunder hammer storm shield captain on a bike and his grav rifle bike squad.

Let's just say, perhaps we can relegate suggestions to things inside the BA codex that can help. Unusual combinations, dirty tricks, maybe a deathstar of my own. Perhaps battlefield experience working with this type of unit etc. The way the discussion is going, it's sounding more like I should not be using BA at all.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I use the tried and true method to Death Stars. MSU. The boys in red are just as capable of handling Death Stars as much as the next. Furioso Libby, Mephiston are great counters because of force, but you are also extremely mobile if you choose to be. Don't forget the off change you roll enfeeble or FnP on biomancy.

 

I really like taking a 10 man squads and combat it or several five man squads for redundancy. Storm Ravens help keep with some of that by keeping your troops safe. I also like vanguard vets with SS and a Priest with a couple of fists. Death company are good counters as a tar pit unit with decent staying power. Being fearless is a huge advantage to tying up units for multiple turns.

 

Also stern guard have never failed me. A couple of grav/melta + combi-xxx are never bad.

 

The old school razorback spam is still viable with some AV 13 goodness (we get fast vindies!) to back it up, and weight of attacks from Death Company dreads bring the hurt.

 

Flesh Tearers Strike Force Detachment has a low tax of 1 HQ and 1 Troops, and has 6 Fast Attack slots that can be filled by cheap Fast Razorbacks and 3 Heavy Support slots that can be filled by cheap Fast Predators. That's nine tanks with fifteen heavy weapons, and plenty of points left to spare for Flyers and more tanks in other Formations and Detachments.

 

You have tons of great options, don't get discouraged, plays test some and see what does better. If you're on a budget and an avid BA player most of the things I've listed are inexpensive in the secondary market, easily kitbashed, or you already have them. I hope you don't get too discouraged. Remember, even though the dex isn't as powerful as the vanilla cousins we still have some really cool stuff to throw down with.

[Karhedron]

Sternguard are worth considering. Hellfire rounds wound on a 2+ and are a great antidote to MCs. Even with a 3+ save, weight of wounds will mean that some get through.

[CaptainHelion]

And unlike s4 bolters, they can hurt a Wraithknight, albiet on 6+

[Spagunk]

@Karhedronuk - I've got a 10 man sternguard squad in my painting queue so I may bump up the priority.

 

Feedback is appreciated for this list: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315918-2000-pts-list-experiment/

 

Essentially 2 death stars with tank screening. MSU units for grabbing back end objectives. SEVERELY lacking in Anti-tank so it's really front heavy. Couldn't find a way to squeeze a Stormraven in here without gutting something important.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

@Karhedronuk - I've got a 10 man sternguard squad in my painting queue so I may bump up the priority.

 

Essentially 2 death stars with tank screening. MSU units for grabbing back end objectives. SEVERELY lacking in Anti-tank so it's really front heavy. Couldn't find a way to squeeze a Stormraven in here without gutting something important.

 

Sternguard in a drop pod or rhino with 2 melta/grav guns and 1-3 combi-melta/grav is really powerful, toss a cheap priest or librarian in there with an auspex  or prescience and you have a fantastic counter to several things.

 

There are tons of articles on how to effectively take Death Stars out of the game. For me, one of the hardest things to do is removing my opponents' target priority and realizing that every unit is a potential throw away unit. This  is a must in competitive 40k, and another reason I don't really like playing competitive 40k anymore. I would rather take cool stuff that I really like instead of streamlined redundancy. It is extremely effective, and you gain a lot of knowledge in that scene, but it can leave you with a flavorless taste in your mouth.

 

I could go on and on about all the stuff I've read, and the great players I've talked to, in depth, about this stuff, but it would become a mini-forum essay. 

 

Edit: Just for Fun: I realize you're not made of money, but I've been in and out of the Hobby since I was 12 years old. I didn't really pick up Blood Angels until 5th edition, when I first graduated from college, so I have acquired a ton of models over the years. So a majority of what I'm about to post I actually already have. I did play BA Razorback Spam in competitive play back in 5th and I lost interest afterwards, but if I were to play in a tournament (or knew I would be facing tournament-like lists) any time soon it would look something like this:

 

Flesh Tearers Strike Force Detachment

HQ

Priest

 

Troop

5 man TAC squad + Razorback TL Heavy Bolter

 

Fast

6x Razorback (either all Las/Plas or 3:3 Assault C. to Las/Plas)

 

Heavy

2x Baal Preds +HB sponsons

 

Angel's Fury Spear Head Force Detachment

3x 10 TAC Squad

3x Storm Raven Gunship (1:2 TL Las MM, Assault C. MM)

 

To break this down there are 7 razorbacks 2 Baal preds and 3 storm ravens 6 5 man squads that have objective secure and 1 5 man unit that can contest/you leave in reserves. This comes out to 1995 points so you could give Melta Bombs to the priest or something. You combat squad the tactical marines in the Storm Ravens and just have them sit until late game, or if you need to contest something early. You play along the board edge and take pop shots at what you need to, but you effectively take out the Death Star and you dictate your opponents target priority. You also make that 500-750 point unit extremely overpriced because they are killing under 90 point squads a turn not to mention you are really fast and mobile.

[Cronhour]

Just go full filth. I can't speak to the ad mech my knowledge on them isn't that deep but the IH unit is about as filthy as it gets. Assasins, inquisition codex are both easily found online and can help you ruin their day. Otherwise psykers Dante and dc striking first with baal along with some melta drop pods will help. If your going up against filth don't be afraid to get yourself dirty.

[Spagunk]

So the battle with the previously mentioned list was a disaster. I was up against a land raider and a knight which proceeded to gut most anything I could get within range. This coupled with really bad dice rolls led to some issues I need to address.

 

I am now contemplating a revamp and possible purchase to change things up.

 

My local store is doing a 20% sale and so I was thinking of picking up a second storm raven or a second/third vindicator. If I bought a second storm raven, I'd probably pick up another drop pod to eventually replace something with two melta assault marine squads to take out heavy targets.

 

Would you consider dual ravens a good way to increase the dangers? Or would dual vindicators be more likely to be helpful?

[Remtek]

Marine tanks are kinda lackluster in general, especially vindicators.  What type of missions do you play? Storm Raven can still be nice.

[Spagunk]

It varies so much so i cant really tell ya for sure.

[Cronhour]

I'm not the most experienced but when i first got back into the game towards the end of 6 i took many beatings from filthy lists, you've got to learn a few hard lessons. At the moment your lists seem really unfocused and unbalanced, if your playing for the fluff that's cool (I recently charged a dreadknight with 5 scouts in a tournament) but if you want to be competitive with BA you need to tighten up your lists especially considering your facing some filth mongers.

 

looking at the list you posted it was a little unfocused, you had the big names and some good units but i'd say no real turn one threat, and limited utility. If your going to use jumpers, they need to get across the table in enough numbers to do some damage and the list you posted just wont cut it.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315918-2000-pts-list-experiment/

 

I added a 1500 point list here which is a good place to start.

 

Two pods turn one gives a distraction for your jumpers as well as doing some alpha, and 8 melta shots can be some really nasty stuff to deliver in your opponents deployment, if its guard or footdar or anything with a 5 up or low T you can drop the templates pop with a melta. Dont forget if they've no vehicles 8 str 8 shots with a couple of kraks and a bolt pistol can be great for thinning out a threatening unit or sniping a character  or special weapon, i've often found them a great way to knock out grav cents before my SG move into LoS.

 

your jumpers need to get across across the table FNp dante and a libby make the SG a nice mini Deathstar, the guard eat most things that aren't another DStar and Dante is there to eat the melee superstars, with the libby its possible to get 10 str 7 attacks at I10 with WS 7, thats going to kill a cc beast or two.

 

With the DC you have to find the sweetspot of output and survivability. AS an indivudal unit they got slightly nerfed (lower ws, harder to get the double rerolls) but people still fear them and they will get focused so a ten man unit is what I've found to get across the table and still hurt something ( as long as they're not the only threat) two fists is a must, the standard guys are the ablative wounds, use them to cover characters and power weapons. Personally I like a sword to clean up any remaining bodies ( i play a lot of 3+ armies) before fists hit the tanks.

 

scouts infiltrate, they pose a threat and add pressure and can do some nice work on the charge with 15 attacks at I5 str5.

The veritas is great, personally i double up on the strategic table and hope for a 1&2 (as move through cover&stealth ruins is great to keep your jumpers moving across the table without taking too much damage, and night vision on 8 melta shots turn one is clutch) but almost everything on there is useful, hide your priest warlord and just use him to buff the army and the unit.

 

Ultimately how you play the list will depend on what you add but it feels like your looking for an i win button and BA just don't have one. Learn the army and be flexible enough to adapt, try not to make individual models too expensive and expect to lose people so be prepared ( I take a 10 man DC as I expect to get 7 or so in combat, a 5 man unit is likely to get weakened to the point of impotence before I get a chance to use it)

 

right now I'm a fan of the forgeworld rapiers as some ranged firepower (120 for 18 twin linked heavy bolter shots out of a T7 unit)

but you could add in two tac squads in rhinos for some objective grabbing pressure and flexability (grav or plas)

maybe two more pods with dreadnoughts (frag cannons) or sternguard or bolter DC (reduced mobility so the extra fire power helps.

 

You can add flyers but I tend to try and get as much stuff on the table as early as possible as otherwise they eat your army piecemeal and by the time your pain taxi arrives the rest of the army has taken too much damage to be effective.

 

a Knight might help but if you don't write tighter lists in general then you'll still get outfilithed, I remeber taking this 1500 point list to a game against a melta knight, grav cents and a few ironclad dreads, I killed the dreads and cents and played keep away from the knight all game to win on objectives, a knight is a lot of eggs in one basket.

[Spagunk]

I'm not the most experienced but when i first got back into the game towards the end of 6 i took many beatings from filthy lists, you've got to learn a few hard lessons. At the moment your lists seem really unfocused and unbalanced, if your playing for the fluff that's cool (I recently charged a dreadknight with 5 scouts in a tournament) but if you want to be competitive with BA you need to tighten up your lists especially considering your facing some filth mongers.

 

looking at the list you posted it was a little unfocused, you had the big names and some good units but i'd say no real turn one threat, and limited utility. If your going to use jumpers, they need to get across the table in enough numbers to do some damage and the list you posted just wont cut it.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315918-2000-pts-list-experiment/

 

I added a 1500 point list here which is a good place to start.

 

Two pods turn one gives a distraction for your jumpers as well as doing some alpha, and 8 melta shots can be some really nasty stuff to deliver in your opponents deployment, if its guard or footdar or anything with a 5 up or low T you can drop the templates pop with a melta. Dont forget if they've no vehicles 8 str 8 shots with a couple of kraks and a bolt pistol can be great for thinning out a threatening unit or sniping a character  or special weapon, i've often found them a great way to knock out grav cents before my SG move into LoS.

 

your jumpers need to get across across the table FNp dante and a libby make the SG a nice mini Deathstar, the guard eat most things that aren't another DStar and Dante is there to eat the melee superstars, with the libby its possible to get 10 str 7 attacks at I10 with WS 7, thats going to kill a cc beast or two.

 

With the DC you have to find the sweetspot of output and survivability. AS an indivudal unit they got slightly nerfed (lower ws, harder to get the double rerolls) but people still fear them and they will get focused so a ten man unit is what I've found to get across the table and still hurt something ( as long as they're not the only threat) two fists is a must, the standard guys are the ablative wounds, use them to cover characters and power weapons. Personally I like a sword to clean up any remaining bodies ( i play a lot of 3+ armies) before fists hit the tanks.

 

scouts infiltrate, they pose a threat and add pressure and can do some nice work on the charge with 15 attacks at I5 str5.

The veritas is great, personally i double up on the strategic table and hope for a 1&2 (as move through cover&stealth ruins is great to keep your jumpers moving across the table without taking too much damage, and night vision on 8 melta shots turn one is clutch) but almost everything on there is useful, hide your priest warlord and just use him to buff the army and the unit.

 

Ultimately how you play the list will depend on what you add but it feels like your looking for an i win button and BA just don't have one. Learn the army and be flexible enough to adapt, try not to make individual models too expensive and expect to lose people so be prepared ( I take a 10 man DC as I expect to get 7 or so in combat, a 5 man unit is likely to get weakened to the point of impotence before I get a chance to use it)

 

right now I'm a fan of the forgeworld rapiers as some ranged firepower (120 for 18 twin linked heavy bolter shots out of a T7 unit)

but you could add in two tac squads in rhinos for some objective grabbing pressure and flexability (grav or plas)

maybe two more pods with dreadnoughts (frag cannons) or sternguard or bolter DC (reduced mobility so the extra fire power helps.

 

You can add flyers but I tend to try and get as much stuff on the table as early as possible as otherwise they eat your army piecemeal and by the time your pain taxi arrives the rest of the army has taken too much damage to be effective.

 

a Knight might help but if you don't write tighter lists in general then you'll still get outfilithed, I remeber taking this 1500 point list to a game against a melta knight, grav cents and a few ironclad dreads, I killed the dreads and cents and played keep away from the knight all game to win on objectives, a knight is a lot of eggs in one basket.

 

 

I'll have to wait until I have more money before buying more things. Only have a single pod and they ran out at the store today.

[jeremy1391]

Dante, Astorath and a maxed out jump DC squad with a smattering of power fists/ hammers is a nasty deathstar.

 

If you feel like being a real jerk bring a librarius conclave from codex space marines and fish for invisibility and give them all jump packs to run around with the DC.

[BrainFireBob]

Angel's Fury Spearhead+assault elements?

 

Come in, assault from DS- DC, Vanguards, Sanguinary guard, even assault termies.

[Brother Raul]

That is a nasty, nasty list. I hope he gets into a tournament grand final with it and plays someone with the exact same list and looses cause he rolled a 5 instead of a 6.

 

Putting that squad on bikes is just plain mean. Your spot on with the dual vindicators say I, question is would a 3rd be a sin? As for the IH chapter master and bike squad only thing I can see wrecking it for sure is 10-15 man DC with Astorath and Dante.  H&R, rerolls to hit and wound would take maybe 2-3 turns, but if your lucky it is possiable to do it in 1. Thank god the IH squad doesn't hit too hard.

[Remtek]

The big weakness of the bike unit is loosing apoth, then they go from a 4+ fnp to 6+ and the CM with gorgons goes from 3 to 5 i think. If he makes some mistakes placing them, pod next to apoth. Or if you have some barrage weapons? I guess we only have whirlwind, you can get a lucky snipe. Or an allied vindicare will take it out easly. 

 

Another trick you can use when taking it out is move your shooting unit so they can only see apoth, that way it's only possible to allocate to him. Say the target is on the left or right side, you can use your own rhinos to block line to his other models. It's not always possible, but small things like that can give you an edge. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Forget Dreads against the Bots. Both Datasmiths and the Magos have a Dataspike, which is a Haywire melee weapon that makes one attack at I10 and can be used as regular melee weapon as well. Most Dreads will simply die before they get to strike. Not to mentioned all the ranged Haywire. I think throwing 10 DC with 2 Fists or Mephy with Thunderstorms at them would be the best solution.