Evolving 30k into 40k

[ElectricPaladin]

The 40k Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines codices frequently come under fire for including wildly unpopular models that don't seem to match the fluff of what Space Marines are and, additionally, seeming disconnected from the fluff and rules of 30k. I'm not trying to be critical - I know that in real life some people actually really like centurions and stormravens, and I know that 30k and 40k are different games, evolving separately, and it's not reasonable to expect them to be 100% in accord - but it does open up an interesting possibility. If we were to take the crusade army list, the various legion rules, and roll them forwards to 40k, what do you think that would look like?

 

The limitations of this project are 1) balancing this new fanmade list against the rules and power level of Warhammer 40k (to the extent that it's possible) and 2) doing what's necessary to alter the crusade army lists so that they reflect 10k years of technological degradation and (for the Chaos legions) submission to Chaos.

 

Thoughts?

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't understand what you mean. In 10,000 years of arguable civilization, we have gone from mud huts and basic agriculture to nearly putting man on Mars.

 

In 10,000 years of warp magic madness and a higher level of technical advancement, and redisocvery of golden age technologic marvels like the Razorback or Stormraven STC's, there are bound to be things new.

 

If you just mean porting the list forward, it already completely works.

 

As for whether a Centurion matches the fluff, nit entirely sure why a Space Marine devastator doesn't want more armour and more powerful weapon, or a Storm Raven Matches? Eh, the design is terrible of it but the fluff? A Dreadnought and squad which can deploy from a vehicle rapidly without needing to be set gently down, and hover for 30-40 seconds under enemy fire spunds like a grand idea, and is exactly why the US military drop things like humvees out of Hercules.

[ElectricPaladin]

Hm. My thought is this: it's obvious that Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and the Legions of 30k are all being developed separately. I'm sure you've read the complaints: Why did Chaos Space Marines forget how to make land speeders? Where did the loyalists misplace their reaper autocannons? Why would the Salamanders stop fielding pyroclasts? How come nobody uses fully trained Astartes recon squads anymore?

 

Another way to put it is that it seems to me that the Horus Heresy is in many ways its own separate game, not a faithful prequel to Warhammer 40k, in the sense that many of the differences between how the 40k army lists work and how the 30k army lists work don't really make any sense. And that's fine - in real life they are games that are evolving side-by-side.

 

That's not necessarily a problem, but I think it opens up an interesting opportunity. I think it would be fun to look at the Legion rules and crusade lists and see what kind of 40k rules we could make if we said "pretend there's no 40k army list - what kind of 40k army list would you invent based on the 30k army lists that are available?"

[Hesh Kadesh]

Land speeders became nigh irrelevant and hard to maintain during their time in the Warp. Reaper autocannons suck, so they developed the iliastus Assault Cannon and it was only rolled out to the IF/BA for testing. Pyroclast Weapons and Armour are artificer and artefact quality of gear. Some maybe preserved, but most were probably killed or lacked supplies and abandoned after being shattered. Of those which survived the Heresy, they have had several thousand years to die. As to fully trained recon squads, Wolf Scouts? As to why not, Recon Squads suck, and there isn't much point in creating models for rules which are bad and which don't sell, or creating rules without models because that leaves them open to IP breaches without recompense.

 

Essentially, GW are selling a game to which they make rules for, despite the corporate rubbish they spew out about being modellers. They want to sell themes and unique gameplay dynamics. Gunline Guard and Tau used to be identical. Different models and slightly different effectiveness, but they played exactly the same. Look different sure, but they had nothing other than that which made them stick out. Space Marines, the same. Spamming 5 man lasplas squads and vindicators had slightly different effects than Broadside spam.

 

Now, 40k has actually different mechanics to identify armies with. Khorne Daemonkin, Gundam, Guard orders, etc.

 

Why are you not asking why Volkites are not in 40k? The difference is it is 'spoon fed' in a way.

 

I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Just use the Legion rules. They are perfectly legal.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Chaos marines do not "make" things. Neither do spacemarines. When you are cut off from the lines of production of the Imperium and have to rely on the nut jobs of the dark mechanicum, you are bound to lose things along the way. 

 

Hesh basically explained why these things no longer are relevent. The last bit is fairly simple, Robbie G's masterwork novel destroyed the overly specialized structure of the legions.

[Icarus1138]

I get what you're saying, but that's a problematic thing to develop forward. Assuming that the events that are described leading up to 40k (retreat to the Eye, battles of Armageddon, etc etc) actually happen, the traitor marines will be in a tough spot game-play wise if we stick to fluff and reason.

 

Loyalist Chapters would probably exist much like they do in 40k currently, though the increase in Legion size over the last few years means you'd see more 2nd founding chapters. The Imperial Fists split into 3 for example, but we can probably assume they had much more than 3,000 marines during the Scouring. Alternatively, if a "Chapter" was based on the Ultramarines chapters (as is logical) then in 40k you'd see 10,000 marine Chapters. Now that I type this, that makes a lot more sense and would maintain the current number of 1st and 2nd founding chapters. With Chapters being 10 times the size, you'd see more specialist units like Pyroclasts surviving into the 40k era, as well as a few more "lost" unit types like superheavy tanks and specialist officers.

 

The Chaos legions would be a mess. Let's be honest, you can't hide in a warp nightmare for 10,000 years (plus or minus, it is the warp after all) and expect to come out of it with anything approaching your old technological basis. Traitor marines from the legions would have better stats than loyalist counterparts across the board, with their unmatched experience in fighting. On the other hand, the current fluff of Chaos champions fighting over rare suits of Terminator armor would likely apply to power armor instead. You'd definitely have units of Chaos marines wearing carapace and carrying logistically friendly lasguns, though they'd at least be BS5 with multiple attacks. They did storm Terra and live, after all.

 

A renegade Chapter would fall somewhere between the two options above.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Guilliman's Codex Astartes divides into chapters of 1,000 to avoid any one man having power over significant amounts of space marines at any given time. The high lords of terra use them because they have no choice. That is the main reason for the death of specialists. Hell, the Imperial Fists cant even maintain Dorn's flying fortress from lost tech and knowledge.

 

Time and reality are very different in the eye of terror. You have guys like Fabius Bile churning out marines, Dark Mechanicum to produce the old goodies and new twisted abominations. Veterans of the long war gives them their edge. Many chaos marines are not veterans either.

 

The eye of terror is not all wonky random mutations all the time. It's just more prone to warp shenanigans. Common misinformation there.

[Icarus1138]

Guilliman's Codex Astartes divides into chapters of 1,000 to avoid any one man having power over significant amounts of space marines at any given time. The high lords of terra use them because they have no choice. That is the main reason for the death of specialists. Hell, the Imperial Fists cant even maintain Dorn's flying fortress from lost tech and knowledge.

 

Time and reality are very different in the eye of terror. You have guys like Fabius Bile churning out marines, Dark Mechanicum to produce the old goodies and new twisted abominations. Veterans of the long war gives them their edge. Many chaos marines are not veterans either.

 

The eye of terror is not all wonky random mutations all the time. It's just more prone to warp shenanigans. Common misinformation there.

 

 

You're describing 40k as it is. The OP's question was what would 40k look like if it were extrapolated out from the current 30k setting, rather than being created first and then 30k "filled in" in later books. At the very least, the increase in Legion size that has been seen of late would have an impact on either the number or size of 2nd founding Chapters. The Imperial Fists split three times, the Space Wolves into two. Salamanders not at all. Iron Hands a few times (four?). That used to make sense, but with Legions averaging 100,000 marines now (pre-Heresy) it no longer is logical. I doubt those Legions had 97% or higher causalities with no replacements over the years of the Heresy. So if Legions are that big, how would that affect a "re-calibrated" 40k? That's the kind of thing the OP is looking to explore, as far as I can tell.

 

My point on the Eye's effect on battle-readiness is simply that if the entire Imperium's industrial base (trillions and trillions of humans, millions of worlds) has trouble equipping 1,000,000 loyalist marines (in current 40k and 30k fluff, half the number a smaller Imperium once better equipped) then I have trouble believing the Eye's comparatively small size and population, with an environment that doesn't favor precision mass-production (Damn, the machine that cuts helmet optics to the right magnification started bleeding. Better toss that batch) wouldn't result in incredible equipment difficulties. 

 

We don't see that in current fluff or rules because that's lame to play with, but the OP specifically asked us to "reflect 10k years of technological degradation and (for the Chaos legions) submission to Chaos".

[ElectricPaladin]

"Recalibrated 40k." I like that. Yes, that's more or less what I'm going for. From what I've read of 30k, I don't feel that 40k makes a lot of sense. I think it would be interesting to "recalibrate" 40k so that it fits 30k, even if it's just as an exercise.

[Memento Of Prospero]

It's nornmal that you feel it doesn't make sense since 40k came before a fleshed out 30k, and this setting is Grimdark, common modern logic does not stand in it.

 

At the same time, it is supposed to be breaking down. The imperium is not equiping 1,000,000 marines. It's also supporting hundreds of billions imperial guard, which was not the case during the Great Crusade. Space Marines were the workhorses. In 40k they are merely highly trained shock troops used as a last resort. The production output and logistics to support space marines is huge as well.

 

And again the eye of Terror is not a random mutation hot spot. Nothing would thrive there. Lorgar would not have found humans to begin with otherwise on his pulgrimage. Stop making it sound like it's complete insanity all around.

 

That same "bleeding machine" can be daemon infused by the dark mechanicum to produce terrible weapons and replacements for space marines. You also have to understand that chaos marines are much smaller than the imperium and they are not under constant threat of invasion by all the Xenos under the stars. No one ventures in the Eye. They take their time and must for their black crusades. They raid and recruit to replenish their numbers.