ChaoticEric Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Have I understood it correctly that there are no specific units in the army lists called Invictarii or Praetorians, unlike for example Invictarus Suzerains, or are there rules for these units somewhere? If there aren't any rules for them, are they just used as upgrades for regular ultramarines to separate them from other legions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Have I understood it correctly that there are no specific units in the army lists called Invictarii or Praetorians, unlike for example Invictarus Suzerains, or are there rules for these units somewhere? If there aren't any rules for them, are they just used as upgrades for regular ultramarines to separate them from other legions? Yes the Invictarii and the Praetorians are just UM specific aesthetic upgrades. For artificer armor and such like or just flavor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Have I understood it correctly that there are no specific units in the army lists called Invictarii or Praetorians, unlike for example Invictarus Suzerains, or are there rules for these units somewhere? If there aren't any rules for them, are they just used as upgrades for regular ultramarines to separate them from other legions? Yes the Invictarii and the Praetorians are just UM specific aesthetic upgrades. For artificer armor and such like or just flavor. Thanks for the info! I've read through the hh book five (tempest) rather quickly but didn't notice any sections on either the invictarii or praetorians. Are they supposed to be upgrades for just veterans/sergeants or for an entire tactical squad for example? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if they had specific roles in the ultramarines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 They're covered on p.81. They were basically a cadre of veterans who were marked out by the UM leadership as having a particular knack for organisation and governance. It's a bit like the tetrarchs, they were sort of outside of the normal company-chapter structure and were supposed to be concerned with managing the realm of Ultramar rather than just crusading. I suppose they needed to appear glorious and representative of Guilliman's dream to the broader populace, hence each having more gilt than another legion's centurion. They "could also be found in limited numbers spread out through the Legion's veteran units and various sub-strata of command (although only a fraction of all veterans, officers or sergeants ranked amongst them)". Says a lot that they didn't remain a fixture after the heresy, they epitomised exactly the sort of responsibility that was removed from the space marines when they were reorganised into chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The "Invictarii" are essentially the command squads of the Ultramarines. Veterans with command potential in training. The "Suzerains" of these are the elite of this elite, serving specifically as the guard of the Primarcha and the Tetrarchs. The "praetorian" armour design is not acknowledged by 'Tempest' at all, which is kind of hilarious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The "praetorian" armour design is not acknowledged by 'Tempest' at all, which is kind of hilarious. The 'Praetor pattern helm' appears, p.84, but it just describes it as often appearing as a mark of honour. Not quite the mention of it appearing as a local MkIV analogue but then it does say that many legions have armorial variants. Some of the SoH reaver armours appear as or more divergent as the UM stuff, superficially at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Praetorian armor was becoming the Ultramarines standard Mk of power armor, in production at local forge world. Invictarii armor is just highly artificed Mk 4 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I would minorly disagree with Legatus on the nature of the Invictarii. Tempest speaks that the Invictarii are elites, but that they also have a responsibility to serve as examples and be leaders to other members of the legion. To me, this sounds alot like how the US Army Rangers and the Abrams charter operates. They serve as an elite unit but often send members back to the regular units to serve as leaders and mentors. As I take it, any heroic or notable veteran sergeant in the legion could serve as invictarii, as could a 'Pride of the Legion" force. Command squads are also a good fit, but I feel that they would not necessarily be confined to command squads. As a reminder, power armor can be blinged up and still not be artificer armor. just my two cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4221815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Sorry for the threadromancy, but I've just started asking myself this same question as I've just bought 10 torsos and helmets. So, if I get this right, I could use 5 for a command squad and they wouldn't look out of place? This the raises the question of what to do with the other 5. As my army is a hybrid 30k/40k force, my 40k head says Vanguard or Steenguard... Which 30k unit would be most similar or would you look somewhere else? Cheers in advance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4357925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Seekers are probably the closest to sternguard, but for vanguard there is no great equivalent. Perhaps vets, or the Ultramarine specific jump troops. Another option is modeling them to use as sergeants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4358146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 One way of looking at the upgrades is this: Praetor – a simple variant power armour, equivalent to the World Eaters' Sarum-pattern etc. These can be used wherever, and on whoever, as Praetor armour would simply be issued. You can have these scattered throughout your army on individuals, or in complete squads. Invictarii – a mark of honour, but not of rank or specialism. Again, these can crop up in whole squads of veterans (as in the Suzerains, for example) to mark out 'capital V' Veteran squads, but would also look good scattered in ones and twos throughout your army as experienced or honoured Ultramarines. This chap, for example, is an Invictarius – as well as a specialised helm, he has a wreath icon around his Legion symbol. In-game, he's used as a regular Tactical marine or a member of a command squad. These Tactical legionaries include members in Praetor-pattern armour (the front three), while the marine with the vox-caster has a standard Mars-pattern helm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4358162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Cheers for the replies guys. That's a command squad and, I'm feeling a 5-man plasma gun toting tactical support squad coming up....all earning legion honour in some way and all awarded the status - I'll have a play with fluff to fit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4358822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Sounds cool. P'raps the Tactical Support Squad could be the remaining veterans of a full-size Tactical Squad, moved to specialist weaponry as a mark of honour? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4359160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 That's the kind of thing to was thinking....along with a 'held the line' type backstory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4359211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Think of the mark as the operating system and the pattern as the hardware. Some marks are different versions of a system like a home and office variant, mark 2 and 3 for example. Mark 4 is a brand new system that refines older features and adds new ones. Mark 6 is a sleek system. Mark 7 is a system that has less requirements than other systems but is more widely available. Mark 5 is any third party reprogramming of the other systems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4359213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cry Wolf Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I think theyre just Vet Upgrades, Also the Plural of Invictarus (asin Invictartus Suzerains) is Invictarii Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315889-ultramarines-invictarii-and-praetorian/#findComment-4360238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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