Did we get it wrong about Albia?

[Pariah Mk.231]

I know, what could we have got wrong about Albia? That place is either Albion (Britain) or Albania in the distant future, right?

 

No, I don't think its that simple. Prepare for crazy theory time.

 

It came to my attention earlier that Albia actually borders a place called Altan (specifically, northern Altan) and frequently fought against the PanPacific Empire (which one would assume surrounds the now diminished Pacific ocean). That would mean Albia and the PPE would have to keep sending their troops across the expanses of the now empty Atlantic ocean and the North American continent (or Merica) every time they got into a scrap, a fair hike. We could even assume that Altan is simply a region consisting of the old Atlantic ocean, I mean it makes sense, just drop the -tic and it's easily renamed Altan. If that is true, then yes, we can reasonably expect Albia to sit anywhere along it's border, qualifying Briton, though there are several named places that could also occupy the British Isles (Albyon and Britonnica).
With the other states that existed in Europe during the Age of Strife, it's impossible for Albania to border Altan if we assume Altan to be where the Altantic ocean once was, so either Altan is something else, or Albania can't be Albia. The location of Albania also places it even further from the PPE, making frequent conflict less likely.

 

I actually think a lot has been assumed about several states in the Age of Strife. It's been assumed that Merica consists of the entirety of the North American continent, that Altan is simply an empty Atlantic ocean and that the names of places have to at least sounds similar to their corresponding modern day name. I don't think Merica takes up the entirety of North America, or that Altan is the Atlantic.

 

Note: I haven't actually come across anything that confirms the above in either way. No confirmation that Merica is the entire continent or that Altan is in fact the Atlantic, or that they're not. But that doesn't mean it hasn't been confirmed, if it has, everything from this point on is pure bunk and I'm sorry for wasting your time.

 

Rather, I'm thinking that Altan is a distant future version of the concept of Atzlan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztl%C3%A1n ), which would directly border the PPE, placing Albia somewhat closer to it's frequent foe than initially thought. With this in mind, I believe Albia to instead be an amalgamation of Alaska and British Columbia, which would be located along Altan's northern border ... right where it's meant to be. This also has Albia sharing a border with the PPE, making their frequent conflicts much simpler to conduct. They would be warring neighbors, not distant nations requiring significant travel to fight each other.
This also sits well with having a connection to ancient Britain, much of the region being a British colony and all, and part of the Commonwealth. If I'm correct about all this, that would mean the original Dusk Raiders, Iron Hands and Night Lords are neither future Brits or Albanians, but rather future Canadians. It's not exactly a significant change, but whatever, it's something different.

Or I've missed something that confirms that Albia is located in Europe and all this is nonsense. Let me know if that is the case.

[Theredknight]

Pretty sure the big e lays the smack down the second athame owner in a ruined castle in albia.

 

Reason it's albia is that the archeologists are specifically digging up ruins of old albia when it was found amongst Fire damaged wood etc.

 

I think it's the short story 'athame' in the mark of calth short stories book?

 

It gives a description on their weapons and armour - medieval Knights, (I think the e is basically King Arthur) I wouldn't imagine that the same equipment would be in Alaska way at that time.

[Pariah Mk.231]

There is still 28,000 years between now and then, it is not outside the realm of possibility that we slide backwards somewhere along the way before advancing again. Kind of like in Futurama when Fry is frozen and you see stuff out the window, which includes aliens destroying the city, a castle being built in it's place, which is in turn destroyed and then New New York is built. And that's in the space of only 1,000 years, GW has plenty of time to work with before hitting the Age of Strife, or even the Golden Age.

[Skalpynock]

It gives a description on their weapons and armour - medieval Knights, (I think the e is basically King Arthur) I wouldn't imagine that the same equipment would be in Alaska way at that time.

Massacre also describes them as having "steam-belching proto-dreadnoughts" and living in "soot-blackened castram-cities". So I guess graphically they'd be a mix of knightly ages and industrial 19th century.

[Kriegriss]

also IF albia is present day Britain that could easily reach the pan pacific by going due north over the evaporated north pole and norther sea

[No Foes Remain]

Well FWs HH Book one stats that Albia borded the Northern Atlan, which I can only assume that means the Northen Atlantic ocean, now this means it could either be America, Greenland or the British Isles (the latter I doubt as in the Outcast Dead they make refference to a place called Albyon which is most likely what the British Isles became).

[Marshal Rohr]

Focus on the names. I attempted a 30k geography map and gave up after a few days because it's easier just to say sergeant X is from Y than Y is Saudi Arabia because it has Z mountain.

[Olis]

Personally, I'm still surprised that people entertain Albania as a serious candidate for Albia. How and why someone thought that Albania is a suitable suggestion (outside of the names containing the same letters), is beyond me. 

[M@verik115]

Personally, I'm still surprised that people entertain Albania as a serious candidate for Albia. How and why someone thought that Albania is a suitable suggestion (outside of the names containing the same letters), is beyond me. 

 

Albania is THE definition of grim dark. 

[DuskRaider]

Albia would be England, Scotland, Wales, and perhaps the surrounding islands like Manx and perhaps Ireland. The location of Britannia could actually be present day Brittany, located on the coast of France.

[Sandlemad]

Albia would be England, Scotland, Wales, and perhaps the surrounding islands like Manx and perhaps Ireland. The location of Britannia could actually be present day Brittany, located on the coast of France.

 

With whatever changes there have been to the sea level by M31, it could all be one island. Or a landmass connected to mainland Europe.

[Olis]

Albia would be England, Scotland, Wales, and perhaps the surrounding islands like Manx and perhaps Ireland. The location of Britannia could actually be present day Brittany, located on the coast of France.

 

And let's not forget Doggerland and Dogger Bank. ;)

 

But we're getting a touch off-topic. Getting back to the OP: While I find the theory interesting, I can't reconcile the assumed location of Atlan (the Atlantic) and the location of Alaska and British Columbia. I think they're in the wrong place, seeing as they are on the other side of the continent to the Atlantic.

[Marshal Rohr]

The places in Atlan are described as platforms though arnt they?

[Olis]

The places in Atlan are described as platforms though arnt they?

 

Maybe you're thinking of the castram-cities in Albia?

[DuskRaider]

Let's throw Sealand in for good measure. It is a platform, after all.

[Olis]

Let's throw Sealand in for good measure. It is a platform, after all.

 

Thing is, if Sealand can somehow still exist in some way in the distant future, then the dozens of oil, gas and ex-military platforms in the North Sea could also plausibly exist, whether as townships, castram-cities or something else.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Albia would be England, Scotland, Wales, and perhaps the surrounding islands like Manx and perhaps Ireland. The location of Britannia could actually be present day Brittany, located on the coast of France.

And let's not forget Doggerland and Dogger Bank.

But we're getting a touch off-topic. Getting back to the OP: While I find the theory interesting, I can't reconcile the assumed location of Atlan (the Atlantic) and the location of Alaska and British Columbia. I think they're in the wrong place, seeing as they are on the other side of the continent to the Atlantic.

That is if Altan is the Atlantic as assumed, and not Atzlan as I suggested.

[Olis]

That is if Altan is the Atlantic as assumed, and not Atzlan as I suggested.

 

Quite true, though I do believe it is a more sound theory than it referring to Atzlan. But that is really just a difference of opinion at the end of the day, unless someone can wrangle a definitive answer out of Alan Merrett. :wink:

[Pariah Mk.231]

Well, I did say it could all be nonsense.

[b1soul]

There is still 28,000 years between now and then, it is not outside the realm of possibility that we slide backwards somewhere along the way before advancing again. Kind of like in Futurama when Fry is frozen and you see stuff out the window, which includes aliens destroying the city, a castle being built in it's place, which is in turn destroyed and then New New York is built. And that's in the space of only 1,000 years, GW has plenty of time to work with before hitting the Age of Strife, or even the Golden Age.

Right...but Occam's Razor

 

Your theory isn't impossible, but it requires more explanation than "Albia" is Albion (the island of Britain)

[Conn Eremon]

If you think of 30k Terra as the actual, real progression of time from modern Earth then Occam's Razor is likely leading you wrong. With humanity's exceeding tendency to recycle names for virtually everything, and the relatively rapid change-over of cultures, governments, peoples, so forth, the more likely possibility is that Albion is named for something that was itself named for something that had that name mean something entirely different and had itself taken the word from a nearly forgotten ancient treatise on an even more ancient, actually forgotten people who first formed fifteen thousand years from now.

 

Basically, the chances of Albion being related to anything of today would be exceptionally low. As an example, if exactly five hundred years ago someone spoke about the earth exactly five hundred years from then, and a reference was made of my home state of California, there could be one or two "obvious" choices as to what it refers to. Both options would be wrong, as twenty or so years from then, someone will recycle one of those choices to refer to the geographical area that would eventually be called the Las Californias, a part of which eventually becoming my home state of California.

 

It'd be a connection that no one could possibly guess, just like the 30k Albion cannot be accurately guessed by us.

 

But that is if 30k represents a real future, a realistic progression of time. It's not. It's a fictional setting created by a few people making stuff up.

 

And Occam's Razor says those people are probably referring to the British Isles.

[b1soul]

You're failing to comprehend Occam's razor.

 

It takes less explanation to claim that Albia is simply Albion. Out-of-universe explanation is that Albia actually sounds a lot like Albion, like how Hy-Brasil sounds like Brazil, Skandmark sounds like Scandinavia, Yndonesic Bloc sounds like Indonesia, etc.

 

In-universe explanation is that Albia has archaelogical Medieval-style castles. We know there are a lot of castles in the UK. We don't need to further justify by speculating that a future regressed civilization built castles, which happened to look Medieval, in Canada or Alaska. Of course, that's a possible theory.

 

That said, someone mentioned Albyon in McNeill's work...I'm not sure whether FW took that into account when writing the Albia fluff

[Pariah Mk.231]

Hy Brasil isn't just Brazil because it sounds like Brazil though, it's confirmed to be on the south American continent, giving it a geographically fixed location. The closest Albia has to a geographical reference is it's proximity to northern Atlan, which itself isn't defined. Artifacts found at a location don't necessitate that that location is where you would most likely expect the artifacts to have originated. The oldest artifacts found in north America are tools from ancient Europeans that crossed the northern ice bridges some 15,000 years ago, and don't match anything the later Asiatic migrants brought with them 8,000 years later. But if someone showed you the European tools, without confirming they had been found in north America, you'd assume the tools to be from a European site because that is where you'd be most likely to find those tools. In this instance, Occam's Razor has led you astray, the simplest explanation was wrong.

That is what has happened with Albia, we've been shown the artifacts and left to assume where they originated based on where you'd be most likely to find other artifacts like it, in this case Briton. They could have been looted from the remains of a museum for all we know. As for "soot-blackened castram-cities", what exactly does that mean? Castram is the plural form of the Portuguese word Castrar - to neuter, geld or castrate. So, what exactly? Towering cities cut off from each other? That could mean cities built around old oil-rigs along the coast of Alaska that now tower above the ground because the ocean is now gone. Or even oil refineries in Alberta (Canada), the next province over from British Columbia and another contender for taking the name of Albia. Both Alberta and British Columbia have a number of museums, both historical and military that could account for the presence of medieval weapons and armour. 
Going back to Castram-cites for a second, it could just as easily be drawn from the Latin Castrum (and knowing GW's fetish for pseudo-Latin, probably what they were going for) which means fortified. So, fortified cities. That could be anywhere as currently no cities are fortified, so doesn't help as a reference point. As for being soot-blackened, it could have something to do with them utilising steam-power, requiring coal, which accounts for the soot and doesn't require the cities to have been present during the Industrial Revolution.

Something else that might mean nothing, or might be one of GW's sly references is that when the Emperor comes to the Albians to negotiate peace, he dresses himself in white and crimson. This could be referencing the colours of the Canadian flag. Likewise it could also represent the St. George flag and support the Briton theory or even mean nothing. 

[Trevak Dal]

I've always pictured the age of strife on earth as being half fallout, and half that dystopian earth from star trek tng (encounter at farpoint iirc it was a Q episode)

[DuskRaider]

Why do people try to read into it too much? It's fluff that was created by British guys in the 20th century. The names represent locations we think of by hearing them. There isn't some overly complicated thought process here, despite REALLY trying to make it so using theories and conjecture.