Vs eldar

[The Milkman Of Baal]

It's a question almost as old as time itself, well for at least this edition. Played my mates eldar army last night and got royal shwact, I think I took a hull point off a wave serpent, killed two bikes and made a wraith knight re think it's sexual orientation. I've trawled the net and I haven't really come across any tactics advice that might help. I've got a rematch in two weeks and was wondering if you guys could point me in the correct direction?

 

Cheers

[Paikis]

Firstly, if you want help, we need information!

 

What list are you using? What additional models do you have available? What list was your opponent running? Does he have additional models available that could change his army significantly? What are they? How much do you care about cheese/fluff? Are you against allying other marine chapters?

[The Milkman Of Baal]

I was running at 1500

Meph

Hammernators in landy

X 2 5 man tac missile launch and Las Plas razor

X 2 whirlwinds

Raven ac mm

5 man assault squad jp x 2 flamers

 

 

He had

 

X 2 6 jet bikes 1 with warlock

X2 6 man reaper squad

Wraith guard and warlock in wave serpent

Wraith knight and a phoenix

 

He'll take his bikes again, and he's got everything from guardians to titans, I've got three of everything and a fellblade.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I find a Furioso with Heavy Flamer and Frag Cannon in a drop pod deals with A LOT of Eldar stuff. A nice Sternguard squad with melta/grav guns  in a drop pod takes care of a lot of wraith knights, and their 2+ poison deals with the Wraith Guard if you use up your combi-Gravs/Melta on the Wraith knight. I also like Heavy Flamers on Tactical squads for pesky rangers, guardians if he brings those, or just the extra wounds on a jet bike squad. weight of fire and wounds really helps against those super fast jet bikes, because otherwise they die like all MEQs. 

I usually don't field TEQs or Landies against Eldar, because of Blade Storm and Strength D.

[Sans Mercy]

I find a Furioso with Heavy Flamer and Frag Cannon in a drop pod deals with A LOT of Eldar stuff. A nice Sternguard squad with melta/grav guns  in a drop pod takes care of a lot of wraith knights, and their 2+ poison deals with the Wraith Guard if you use up your combi-Gravs/Melta on the Wraith knight. I also like Heavy Flamers on Tactical squads for pesky rangers, guardians if he brings those, or just the extra wounds on a jet bike squad. weight of fire and wounds really helps against those super fast jet bikes, because otherwise they die like all MEQs. 

This^

And for jerkfaces taking Eldar-Super-Mega-Good-Awesome-Invisibility-Spam-Conclave, don't be too proud to ally a Culexus in a drop pod. Plop him in their midst and watch their jaw drop. You can use infiltrate for cheaper, but you wanna get those barbs(Psychic Abomination) in deep.

[Paikis]

Please take the following criticisms as things to think about and not as a personal attack. They are not intended to be such.

 

I was running at 1500
Meph
Hammernators in landy
X 2 5 man tac missile launch and Las Plas razor
X 2 whirlwinds
Raven ac mm
5 man assault squad jp x 2 flamers

 

I can't speak for the Eldar list, but I put your army as stated at about 1250 points, so you should look into maybe taking another unit or two.

 

One other thing to consider is that aside from Mephiston, you have nothing Blood Angels-related in your army. You could drop Meph, take a standard librarian and then simply play as a vanillla chapter with some useful bonuses, instead of the BA bonuses which quite literally ARE the unique units that you aren't really taking. Also, you're playing an army where the majority of our strengths are in our Elites, yet the only Elites in your list are the ones freely available to any marine chapter... and terminators are widely considered to be hugely over-costed or under-performing (depending on which way you want to look at it).

 

My preference for list building is to take lots of dudes. This basically means you will never see a Land Raider or Terminators in my armies (as much as I love the models) as they cost way too much and give you way too few bodies. Hammernators and Landraider come to about 500 points, that's a huge chunk of points if they don't do anything. If you had Meph in that same squad, you're now looking at about 650 points, more than half your listed points value. For 650 points, you could have 2 full tactical squads with special and heavy weapons, kitted out sergeants and drop pods or rhinos to take them places as well as a 10 man Death Company with a fist.

 

What you want is more dice and more wounds. Bikes live and die by their jink saves, and the best way to get around jinks is the same way you kill terminators, you drown them in dice. Whether you want to do that with tactical marines (I think the bikes out-range tacticals? Not 100% sure) or with Dakka-predators, or by some other means (sternguard in a pod sounds reasonable), get more dice.

 

Hammernators are relatively tough, but what else is tough? 3 times as many wounds. If he has any AP2 weapons (and he should, it's everywhere) a terminator isn't any more tough to kill than a tactical marine, but costs 3 times as much and can't shoot. If they never make it into close combat, then you've spent half your army's points and achieved nothing.

 

I know a lot of BA players see our troops choices as a tax to get to the good stuff, but I've had a fair amount of success by just having enough bodies on the table. Tacticals let you do that. I have 3 tactical squads (two of which are painted as smurfs, the shame), and a 4th waiting painting. They are the core of your army, and skipping out on them to include more toys will make your army weaker. At 1500pts you should have at least 2 full tactical squads and shouldn't consider having 3 to be unusual.

 

Anyways, I hope this has at least provided you with something to think about, and Im sure someone will be along to give another opinion shortly :) Good luck with purging the xenos!

[Red-beard]

Land raiders are not at all a good choice against Eldar. Their anti-tank weapons are all either haywire, strength D, or lance and any of these ignores the AV14. A land raider is basically just wasted points. Take rhinos, jump packs, and drop pods. 

 

Terminators are also not a very good choice against Eldar. They are too slow to really be a threat to Eldar. The Eldar will keep their distance until the LR is destroyed and then it's just an easy game of hide and see. All their weapons have bladestorm and will cut through the 2+ terminator armour when they rend. 

 

I've had good luck against Eldar when I take fast, mobile lists. They are accustomed to being much faster than their opponents and being able to use their speed to react tactically. If you're moving nearly as fast as them (jump units, fast rhinos, fast razorbacks, bikes, landspeeders), you'll minimize their advantage. Also, take advantage of cover saves to minimize the effectiveness of their rending. You're going to need to play your power armour army like a Tyranid or Ork list....cover saves are your friend!

 

Next, Eldar have difficulty dealing with drop pods and are susceptible to nasty alpha strikes.  They can shoot whatever gets out, but by then you've already had your alpha strike. I agree with the above comment about the Fragioso. A Fragioso in a drop pod will wreck most Eldar infantry or bike units. Also, take a squad of melta assault marines in a pod to wreck one of their vehicles turn 1. Between the melta and the Fragioso, you can take out (or at least greatly weaken) two units turn 1. Take three pods minimum so both can come in turn 1.

 

Finally, play to the objectives. Don't fall victim to trying to table the Eldar player. They are too fast and mobile. Make sure your units are placed well tactically such that they can claim and contest objectives, when needed. 

[Jimm]

The following I find excel vs eldar

 

First if sicaran, it will be target no1 as it practally fires eldar tears

 

As usual Dc with jp are good. Keep them cheap utilise the speed

 

Fragnoughts in pods with hf for back field objective clearing

 

Tacs in a pod with hf, cheap and cheerful for guardian clearing

 

Grav bikes are fairly good

 

Dante always delivers for me

 

Cover and speed are the key things vs eldar. If your as fast its at least a closer field and cover is a must due to bladestorm galore.

If you can muster up ignores cover (hi ig command squad) or ignores jinks (sicaran) you have an edge vs alot of their good hits

[Cronhour]

Depends on the opposition but these days we pay off with bodies. I had great success against elder with corbs and podded Marines in their face turn one backed up by jp death company (fnp.) baal and corbs bubble negate their initiative bonus and you can mulch them in cc. Remember you can attach corbs to a nine man assault squad with two flamers and you'll strike at the same time of they charge you, or first if you charge them.

 

Wraith knights are a bitch but you can take a lobby dread of he rolls with them. Nothing like a ate 10 force weapon charging at I5-8 to ruin their day. Though they can mount a pretty effective deny defense. The elder book is generally stronger than ours but you can defiantly have a much better time against them if you change your list style.

[The Milkman Of Baal]

Cheers guys good advice and taken on board. I noticed that stormravens are missing, any reason?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Cheers guys good advice and taken on board. I noticed that stormravens are missing, any reason?

 

No reason, I still love them. They are fantastic gunboats, but it depends on how you run them. I really like the hurricane bolters to help with infantry. If you're looking at math hammer, those jet bikes can still do a good bit of damage against Storm Ravens. I usually field at least one in 1500 games and look at 2 in 1850-2000.

[LutherMax]

You won't be disappointed by Dante + Sanguinary Guard + Sanguinary Priest.

 

Why we can't buy Artificer Armour for the Priest is beyond me (especially when he's modelled wearing it!) but this is still an awesome Blood Angels unit and can fit in a 1500 point list if you keep the wargear reasonable.

[Karhedron]

You need Marines, lots of Marines!

 

Between Bladestorm, Destroyer and other high-powered weapons, you want to avoid providing an Eldar player with high value targets. Death Company with Jump Packs are great and will tear most Eldar apart in CC, especially on the charge. Dante is a beatstick and is a match for any characters in the Eldar codex, consider running him with DC so maximise their charge bonuses via Hit and Run.

 

If he likes his Wraithknights, Grav is far and away the best counter. Grav bikes are good but if you are willing to consider allies then a drop pod of Dev Centurions will really make a mess. On average they will take a Wraithknight down to 1 wound with a single volley. Your remaining heavy weapons should be able to finish the job.

 

Aside from the CC Aspects and Wraith units, Eldar really don't like assault. Even CCW Scouts are good enough to take on most Eldar infantry in assault as they will be wounding on a 2+ on the charge.

 

Eldar bikes are quite tasty, especially with their firepower boost so the best thing to do is to deny them shooting wherever possible. They are Ld8 so even a couple of casualties on a 6-man squad has a 1-in-3 chance of sending them running (flying) for the hills. Don't hesitate to send AP2/3 firepower their way. If your opponent Jinks then their damage output is massively reduced next turn. If you can assault them then always try to. Only your bikers and jump packs are likely to have the speed to catch them but if your opponent gets careless, you may be able to catch them.

 

What flavour wraithguard is he running? If he is running the cannon version then deny them big targets as outlined above. They will get out of their Serpent, kill 3-4 Marines and then you can either shoot or assault them. D-scythes are much scarier as they can easily annihilate whole squads in one go and their D3 auto-hits on overwatch makes charging very risky. If your opponent is bringing D-scythes, try to bring down their Serpent as fast as possible. Jinking will make this hard but if you drop some meltas into its rear then you have a better chance as at least you will bypass the Serpent Field. Once they are in the open, shoot them with anything you can and use your mobility to keep out of Template range.

 

The Storm Raven is good but watch out if your opponent brings a Crimson Hunter. Both aircraft pack enough weapons to bring the other down in a single volley (with a bit of luck) so it will often be a case of the first to fire being the winner. The good thing is that AV12 will protect you from several other sources of Eldar AA. Their flakk missiles are S7 and expensive so you are unlikely to face many of them. Guided scatter lasers and Warp Spiders can only Glance a Raven on 6. Dark Reapers are only a threat if your opponent has shelled out the points for Starshot missiles.

 

Sternguard tend to be good against Eldar as their special ammo hits Eldar in several weak spots. Eldar have few 2+ saves so your Vengeance rounds will have plenty of targets, especially the bikes and Reapers your opponent seems fond of. Against several Aspects your Kraken rounds will do well but you didn't mention them in your opponent's list. Lastly you have your Hellfire rounds for dealing with Wraithguard and Wraithlords (sadly the Wraithknight only succumbs on a 6 so consider adding a sprinkling of combi-grav in case you need to finish off the big fella). I would consider a squad of 10 with a few combi gravs and a few combi meltas in a Drop Pod. When you arrive, you can decide whether or not you need to combat-squad allowing you to seriously hurt a couple of different targets.

[Karhedron]

You won't be disappointed by Dante + Sanguinary Guard + Sanguinary Priest.

Actually you might against Eldar. Between Bladestorm, Destroyer weapons and a charging Wraithknight, the Sanguinary Guard will tend to perform poorly against Eldar. Their 2+ save will help protect against Dark Reapers and small arms-fire but Eldar have lots of deadlier stuff to shoot you with. Try to avoid providing them with high-value targets.

[Charlo]

 

You won't be disappointed by Dante + Sanguinary Guard + Sanguinary Priest.

Actually you might against Eldar. Between Bladestorm, Destroyer weapons and a charging Wraithknight, the Sanguinary Guard will tend to perform poorly against Eldar. Their 2+ save will help protect against Dark Reapers and small arms-fire but Eldar have lots of deadlier stuff to shoot you with. Try to avoid providing them with high-value targets.

 

 

Bladestrom is the main thing that infuriates me about eldar. All thier other stuff can be cheesy, but aty least they pay a lot of points for it. "My ballet dancer with a basic rifle has a pretty good chance to kill your dude in 6 inch thick ceramite, you cool with that?"

[The Milkman Of Baal]

So this is what I've got @ 1500

 

 

+++ Blood angels 2 (1500pts) +++

 

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

 

+ (No Category) +

 

Relics and Detachment-rules

Codex: Blood Angels [baal Strike Force]

 

Sanguinary Discipline

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain [bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, The Angel's Wing]

 

+ Elites +

 

Death Company Squad [10x Bolt Pistol, 8x Chainsword, 10x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, Power Fist, Power Weapon]

 

Furioso Dreadnought [Magna-grapple]

Drop Pod [storm Bolter]

Power Fists [Frag cannon, Heavy flamer]

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [Grav-gun, Heavy flamer, 9x Tactical Marine]

Drop Pod [storm Bolter]

Tactical Sergeant [Hand Flamer, Power weapon]

 

Tactical Squad [Meltagun, Missile launcher, 9x Tactical Marine]

Drop Pod [storm Bolter]

Tactical Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Combi-Melta]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Squad [9x Assault Marines, Jump Packs, 2x Meltagun]

Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Melta Bombs]

 

Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, 2x Flamer, Jump Packs]

Assault Sergeant [bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Melta Bombs]

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels

 

Thoughts. Cheers guys

[Karhedron]

You can probably do without the Angel's Wing as Eldar do not have much in the way of Interceptor. You also have Dante to keep DS scattering to a minimum.

 

I would be tempted to try and replace the flamer assault squad with a grav biker squad. You have plenty of template weapons for BBQing pixies but you could do with extra punch against Wraith units and the tough flavours of Aspect Warriors. They are not bad against skimmers at pinch.

[The Milkman Of Baal]

nice cheers, so replaced the flamer squad with grav bikes. Are I knights a viable option or do the W Knights shut them down.

I really appreciate the advice guys, only played this dex 3 times since launch so I'm kinda out of the loop at the mo. 

[Frater Cornelius]

WK shut IK down. Basically, the introduction of the dual D WK has made models over 200 points completely obsolete, namely anything that is remotely fun to use. Name me any other gaming system where one single bloody model has changed the entire system...

[LutherMax]

WK shut IK down. Basically, the introduction of the dual D WK has made models over 200 points completely obsolete, namely anything that is remotely fun to use. Name me any other gaming system where one single bloody model has changed the entire system...

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with Wraith Knights (sounds like I'm lucky!)

[Jolemai]

 

WK shut IK down. Basically, the introduction of the dual D WK has made models over 200 points completely obsolete, namely anything that is remotely fun to use. Name me any other gaming system where one single bloody model has changed the entire system...

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with Wraith Knights (sounds like I'm lucky!)

Stock build is two heavy wraithcannons, which can be fired independantly due to the GMC rules.

[Red-beard]

Wraithknights can be frustrating to play agaist, especially if you're not used to them. 

 

Move forward quickly, surround them, and assault them with AP3 weapons.  In a recent tourney, I killed a wraithknight in a single round by surrounding it and then assaulting it with Cassor the Damned, a unit of Sanguinary Guard, and the Sanguinor.  When my opponent saw his wraithknight go down like a chump to infantry models in round 2, he nearly pooped himself =p.

 

...and yes, leave the big ~400 point models at home.

[LutherMax]

 

 

WK shut IK down. Basically, the introduction of the dual D WK has made models over 200 points completely obsolete, namely anything that is remotely fun to use. Name me any other gaming system where one single bloody model has changed the entire system...

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not familiar with Wraith Knights (sounds like I'm lucky!)

Stock build is two heavy wraithcannons, which can be fired independantly due to the GMC rules.

What's the stats on those (if it's allowed to post)?

[Frater Cornelius]

One shot each (totaling at two shots) at 36" with strength D AP2. The D is the problem. The model itself sports T8 with 6W and due to being a Gargatuan Creature it has Feel no Pain and Stomp in melee. All for 295pts. In short, the single most obnoxious model ever created. They were fine in their previous incarnation. Why this Oo Anyway, I feel I am starting to rant again, so leave it at that ;)

[LutherMax]

What BS are they?