Baronial Court question

[TheAvengingKnee]

With the 3 knights I have I currently I have one that is built as a paladin, 1 as an errant, and 1 as a warden.  I am looking at using a Baronial Court. from the warden kit I have the parts to make the errant into a paladin, would I be better off having him as a paladin?

[CommodusXIII]

When running three Knights, I typically choose two Paladins and an Errant.  The Paladin and Warden are roughly equivalent, fulfilling similar roles with different weapons.  I've found the Errant to be invaluable for cracking vehicles and taking care of TEQ units.  The Paladin performs admirably, but hits a steep wall when faced with AV13+ or 2+ armor saves at range.

[TheAvengingKnee]

I am going to run 2 squads of grav bikes with them so not terribly worried about high AV and 2+ armor. I have fielded the one as an errant several times and it has never impressed me at all, usually doesn't do anything. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by TheAvengingKnee

[CommodusXIII]

If that's your experience, then go with it.

[Terminus]

I agree my Errant rarely contributes significantly. Its gun is the second worst after the Magaera.

[jeffersonian000]

I agree my Errant rarely contributes significantly. Its gun is the second worst after the Magaera.

I disagree. The Thermal Cannon synergizes with assault range of the Knight, unlike the RFBC which encourages hanging back. AGC is the better of the three, though.

 

SJ

[Terminus]

I'm sorry, a long range of the weapon doesn't specify you must maintain that range. That's complete nonsense, we're not talking about conversion beamers or minimum range artillery. But the opposite is true for the Errant, its shorter range weapons FORCE you to close in (you have to be within 18" before you get the melta rule). And once you're close, Knights are actually not that tough, with opponents being able to get angles around the ion shields or just ignoring them by punching it in the face. Plus, even with AP1, chances are very good that single shot you put on the vehicle will cause a hull point and maybe a weapon destroyed. Interestingly enough, a Paladin with a meltagun stands a better chance of glancing a typical vehicle to death (three shots from melta and main gun) than the Errant with a meltagun does blowing it up (two shots from melta and main gun).Then the Paladin still has another weapon so it can attack someone else.

 

In fact, that second stubber actually makes the Paladin way better at assault. A Paladin could put a melta and a skyspear rocket launcher into a vehicle (5 S8 shots), then lob two battle cannon shells clear across the battle field at some troops, then target a third unit with the stubber and charge and stomp them to death. In a similar situation, the Errant will throw the same five shots at the vehicle, and then it has to decide whether to lob just the one shot half the way down the battle field (and thus give up assault for that turn), or fire at the charge target (potentially killing the guys who were in range).

 

Out of the GW Questoris suits, the Paladin stands above the rest. Warden is also excellent, because sometimes you want to roll dice and not depend on blast, especially if we're talking Baronial Court (overwatch), or Mechanicus Convocation (all sorts of ballistic skill buffs). The Crusader is an odd bird, because I'd never consider it outside of an all Knights list. There are just very few situations where I'd give up a D melee weapon for another ranged weapon and pay 50 points for the privilege. Knight lists are an exception, because then I already have a 2-3 Destroyer weapons out there for them to worry about and I more than likely have a good chunk of spare points I can't use on another Knight.

 

I'll actually put the Gallant above the Errant, because if I'm going to barrel a suicide knight into their army (because that was the typical fate of my Errant as I desperately tried to get close to get good mileage out of that thermal cannon), I rather save 50 points and maybe get to watch the fist do something funny. The Thermal Cannon would have made me swoon in 5th edition, but it's just not exciting enough in 7th. It would have had a niche if it was S10 (so it can insta-kill T5), or if instead of melta it had straight armourbane.

 

Out of the 30K Questoris suits, the Styrix is quite expensive, but has blessed autosimulacra, flare shields, and two very interesting guns. The hekaton siege claw is an interesting choice; likely neither the wrecker nor the flamer rules will ever actually come up in the game, but it does give you a third gun to aim at your assault target with very little chance of putting you out of range. The Magaera sucks because it has categorically the absolute worst main weapon of any Knight, and a plasma-fusil secondary isn't exactly making my nipples hard.

 

TL/DR Questoris Ranks

Awesome: Paladin, Warden, Styrix

Situational: Gallant, Crusader

Soggy Turds: Errant, Magaera

 

Also, please, for the love all things holy (or unholy if that's your thing, no judgement here), please correct your signature quote. It's the Book of Revelation, singular. :)

[CommodusXIII]

No need to get a burr in your armor.  Different people will have different experiences.  Your personal experiences don't invalidate those of another player.

 

I wouldn't trade my Errants for any other Knight because in my meta they balance very well alongside my Paladins.  I face a lot of AV14 and 2+ armor saves, neither of which the Paladin can reliably crack.  The Errant works very well for rushing those heavy vehicle squadrons, pegging multiple hulls with its S9 AP1 melta pie plate at close range, and tearing the survivors apart in combat.  Two working in tandem, with fire support from Paladins in the backfield, is an absolutely brutal combination.

 

The Paladin, on the other hand, is very good at eliminating infantry up to and including MEQs.  It's also good at taking down light to medium armor.  Above this, however, it hits a brick wall due to the limitations of AP3.  TEQs will shrug it off, forcing you to rely on dice-drowning.  The Ordinance armor penetration buff helps a little, but against AV13+ the odds aren't in your favor.  You'll also be limited to a single hull point of damage per hit, which means that HP3+ vehicles will require multiple turns and/or multiple Knights to bring down.

 

Now, if I was in a horde-focused meta my experiences would certainly be different.  A screwdriver might be a poor choice in tool when you need a hammer, but that doesn't mean that the the screwdriver itself is a poor design.  You just need the experience and understanding to select the proper tool for the task at hand.

Edited November 12, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[jeffersonian000]

Also, please, for the love all things holy (or unholy if that's your thing, no judgement here), please correct your signature quote. It's the Book of Revelation, singular. :)

It's a joke, actually, hence the plural.

 

SJ

[Terminus]

There is no need to get so defensive, we're just having a discussion. I also must contend with a few of your assertions.

 

You say the Errant is better at dealing with AV14. If your meta is full of parking lots where a single template is managing to overlap several Land Raider hulls, then bully for you, but I imagine that is a very atypical meta. Also, if we are talking about long range (anything greater than 18"), the Paladin is actually a bit better at stripping hull points off of Land Raiders. The S9 shot from the Errant will glance/pen on 5+ (0.33 per shot). Each of the Paladin's S8 ordnance shots has two chances to roll a 6 to glance (so again 0.33 per shot, except you get two shots). Against anything lighter like Predator Squadrons, especially when you are tagging multiple hulls with each shot, the Paladin's damage output straight up runs away from the Errant. Up close, stomps pen on 2+ and D weapons make a mockery of any armour. In a cross 30K/40K setting, the AV14 things may sport armoured ceramite, making the melta even less valuable. Although granted, at <18" you have a ~72% chance to penetrate that land raider, and then you could roll that 5 to blow it up (about 24% of the time before cover). Any result less, and you are being charged by the contents of that Land Raider on the next turn. Hell, even with an explode result and being at 17.99" is not 100% guaranteed safety if they roll boxcars for charge distance.

 

As for the Terminators, if they are the thunderhammer/stormshield variety, weight of fire from Paladin/Warden deals with them better. If we're talking stormbolter/powerfist terminators (really atypical meta), then the Errant will indeed perform better, but in that setting I would be seriously eyeballing the Lancer.

 

So yes, I will concede the point, it is indeed meta-specific. If your particular meta does not allow 30K units, and consists entirely of standard Terminator squads in Land Raiders, the Errant will serve you better. In every other situation, you're better off with anything else. I do have a magnetized thermal cannon just because it looks cool, for whatever that's worth.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Terminus

[CommodusXIII]

I didn't say anything about Land Raiders or Terminators, but if you want to turn my post into a strawman argument more power to you.

 

To your original question, TheAvengingKnee, go with what works for you. If you have the Errant's niche covered by other units, two Paladins and a Warden can be a great team.

[MithrilForge]

some people can play well with lots of different options, some people can't play well with anything or get to blinkered in their ways to see reason....

try using different things and you may discover hidden gems.... 

 

Mithril

[Terminus]

I don't understand why you are taking such a combative position. A discussion of differing opinions doesn't have to be an argument. Ironically, your strawman defense is in itself a strawman. If you meant something other than Land Raiders and Terminators when you said "AV14 squadrons and TEQ", I apologize for my presumption and hope you will elaborate further.

[CommodusXIII]

Terminator Equivalent (TEQ) refers to units that have similar statlines to Space Marine Terminators.  In this case, medium to medium-high toughness, 2+ saves and possibly a secondary save (++ or FNP).  Examples of units that fall into this category include:

• Meganobz
• Obliterators/Mutilators
• Devastator/Assault Centurions
• Broadsides
• Riptides
• Tyrannofexes
• Carnifexes

The latter three stretch the boundary of the definition, but for the purpose of comparing to-wound rolls and saves they can be included.

 

Figuring out if a vehicle has AV14 is relatively easy, but for the sake of discussion:

• Leman Russes of all varieties, which are also frequently fielded in squadrons
• Monoliths
• Fortifications from Bastions to Plasma Obliterators

All of these are relatively common in my area.  Wardens are typically better at the MCs on the first list, but from the perspective of building take-all-comers, Knight-focused lists the Errant checks far more boxes across the board.  And in my experience with that environment/approach, they perform much better.

[Nyustukyi]

But you are only focusing on 2 sides of the spectrum. TEQ and AV14, which is the hardest for anything to break. Now against Hordes, the Battle Cannon does better. Deployment Spectrum, it also is the easiest to adjust with. Regardless of the battle lines you have range. I however, think it should be a mixture of them in that sense. I do see a place for Errants, but I think it should be a 2 to 1 ratio. For every Thermal you run 2 Battle Cannons. This is where you have to think about how well rounded are your lists? 

 

Also My battle cannons have killed entire squads of marines, thanks in part, to the second shot it can fire. I however think, that if you are going to run a Knight Errant, run it with the Stormspear. This gives you more range and ammo to pop things and helps to make up for the one shot wonder that it is. Also with Barional Court I would sugguest more Battlecannons vs Thermal. This is due to the fact of the second shot giving more weight of fire on target. In some other formation I could see the Thermal doing better. More so if you take the one that gives all knights BS 5. This makes them very able. Otherwise make your Baron the Thermal in this Formation. To make better use of that Thermal. 

[CommodusXIII]

My point is only that the Errant serves a very useful purpose, depending on the local meta. Personally, I rely much more on my Paladins - but when they encounter a unit that they can't crack, I'm very thankful that my Errant(s) are around. Edited December 16, 2015 by CommodusXIII