Thinking about Raven Guard no vehicles

[temneb]

The idea is target saturation. Infiltrate and scout close enough to do damage with the Mor Deythan, the support squads are the next threat as is the las cannon squad. I've got some points to spare and only really have the Dark Furies in for fun. Thoughts

 

Master of Signal: artificer armour; refractor field; cameleoline 120

 

9 Tactical Space Marines: + 1 Tactical Sergeant 150

9 Tactical Space Marines: + 1 Tactical Sergeant 150

4 Tactical Support Marines: plasma guns; + 1 Tactical Support Sergeant 175

4 Tactical Support Marines: plasma guns; + 1 Tactical Support Sergeant 175

4 Tactical Support Marines: volkite calivers; + 1 Tactical Support Sergeant 125

4 Tactical Support Marines: volkite calivers; + 1 Tactical Support Sergeant 125

 

5 Mor Deythan: 3× combi-weapon; 2× flamer; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-weapon) 193

5 Mor Deythan: 3× combi-weapon; 2× meltagun; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-weapon) 203

5 Mor Deythan: 3× combi-weapon; 2× meltagun; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-weapon) 203

5 Mor Deythan: 3× combi-weapon; 2× plasma gun; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-weapon) 203

 

3 Outriders: melta bombs 105

3 Outriders: melta bombs 105

4 Dark Furies: + 1 Chooser of the Slain 175

 

4 Heavy Support Marines: lascannons; + 1 Heavy Support Sergeant (artificer armour; nuncio-vox and chainsword; augury scanner; infravisor) 255

 

Corvus Corax 450

 

2,912 points

[Failbaddon]

Hi! To start, I think the Raven Guard are a great choice to make. They're one of my favourite legions alongside the Sons Of Horus & Iron Warriors. Just some tips:

-The MoS cannot be taken as a compulsory HQ choice. Alternatively, you can buy a Praevian accompanied by sone Castellax Battle Automata. Not only will they be able to infiltrate, but they will also compensate for the RG's lack of heavy firepower

-You should seriously consider the Decapitation Strike Rite Of War. It'll let you buy drop pods fir a lot of your units and add in some extra goodies such as re-rolling your die to see who goes first (which is extremely useful for an Infiltrating/Drop Pod army like the Raven Guard. Infiltrating is good, but in the Horus Heresy, there are a lot more counters to Infiltration than in 40k, especially if you're up against a Mechanicum army or a list that includes a high amount of Augury Scaners. Drop pods will allow half of your guys to come in Turn 1 and be placed exactly where you want to strike and where your enemy doesn't

-I would definitely take more Flamer/Combi-Flamer equipped Mor Deythan. Seriously, very few things will survive being overwatched by a Template weapon with Rending that re-rolls to wound.

[Nusquam]

I agree with the above. You have enough Mor Deythan that they don't all need to be flamers; but twinlinked rending flamers will melt most things.

As for the HQ; A Praevian and Castellax is potent, but I've found the darkfire cannons to be less useful in the AT department. They aren't bad, they just aren't anything stellar either. Alternatively you could take a vigilator for his Sabotage attack.

[Caillum]

Praevian's have "Support Officer" too, so you'll need a Champion, Chaplain, Siege Breaker, Vigilator or Forge Lord (or a stock Centurion). Alternatively, you could (or indeed should) take Alvarex Maun! He is the greatest Special Character out there, I think. Doesn't look like much, but as Failbaddon said Decapitation Strike is very good for Raven Guard, and he ensures you go first 85% of the time (or something like that).

 

The army looks very 40k, not 30k. The games play very differently, so if you're up against other 30k forces, it might not work too well. Up against 40k armies, it looks pretty solid. :)

[temneb]

Alright. Thank you guys.

 

Alright then, in your opinions can an MSU all infltraiting force work in the 30k setting?

If not what is the prevailing issue?

 

I was planning on using the ROW Decapitation Strike pretty much just for the reroll who goes first. As far as I can tell, Maun's only benifit to this list is the reroll of cease the initiative. Am I missing something? I know this is a go first or it's going to be hard list, but is extra chance 1/6th chance really that important?

 

I'm thinking of going pure infiltrating infantry at this point. Ditching the bikes and possibly the jump pack units, run Corax post massacre. Though I am partial to the jump pack units.

 

I also already run drop pods with my wolves so I am trying to stay away from them in this list.

 

With these things in mind what do I need to do to make this playable to the point where it's is competitive in a 30k setting. Can it be done with no vehicles?

[Slips]

The Prevailing issue of using MSU 5 man squads in 30k is that EVERYTHING is made to kill MEQ.

 

And the less bodies you have in an MEQ squad in this setting, the easier it will be for them to get Erased.

 

You've got threat overload but the individual squads have no real staying power since it will take comparatively less firepower to kill them than otherwise would be necessary.

[temneb]

Cheers Slip.

 

The thought process is that squads once they have been rendered combat ineffective become objective grabbers. With guaranteed 6 in run, they become quite mobile and have to be completely destroyed as most are objective secured or whatever the equivalent is.

 

So hopefully hit hard, then play for objectives. Might proxy it and see how it goes.

 

I might add a couple of lightnings with 4 kracken's. I think that will still fit the theme of a SF force behind enemy lines.

[Slips]

Thing is, only troops score. Everything Else Denies.

 

So, if your opponent has a unit on an Objective and you send a Troop unit to cap it, nothing happens.

 

It also means that for objective games, Troops'll be the first to gun down ESPECIALLY since they're toting plasma guns. And with the potential amount of S8 Ap3+ Pieplates around, they wont really last all that long.

[Caillum]

Raven Guard are built for Drop Pod Assault - it's their modus operandi. However, they don't need many Drop Pods to be effective, so you wouldn't be running too similar a list to your 40k Space Wolves.

 

As Slips said, anti-MEQ in 30k is very prevalent. Survivability is crucial, whether it be 20-man Tacticals with an Apothecary, or a Spartan to protect your pricey Deathstar. MSU is doable, but you have to look at it a little differently to 40k. Mass Troops is also not a viable option really, as they lack any sort of versatility.

 

Lascannon HSS is pretty good, but without a bunker to protect them, they will get wiped out really easily (and Decap Strike allows no Fortifications) - Predators are very underrated! Outriders are underused, but I reckon Javelins would work better for their price. Consider this list:

 

HQ

Strike Captain Alvarex Maun

Chaplain: artificer armour; bolt pistol; Crozius; melta bombs; boarding shield; Cameleoline 115

 

TROOPS

19 Tactical Space Marines: add chainswords; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; power weapon; melta bombs) 315

9 Tactical Space Marines: Legion vexilla; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; melta bombs) 175

• Drop Pod

4 Tactical Support Marines: plasma guns; + 1 Tactical Support Sergeant 175

• Drop Pod

 

ELITES

4 Mor Deythan: 4× combi-flamer; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-flamer; melta bombs) 165

• Rhino

4 Mor Deythan: 4× combi-flamer; + 1 Mor Deythan Shade (combi-flamer; melta bombs) 165

• Rhino

3 Rapier Carriers: 3× graviton cannon 225

3 Rapier Carriers: 3× graviton cannon 225

 

FAST ATTACK

Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

• 1 Javelin Attack Speeder: 2× hunter-killer missiles 85

Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

• 1 Javelin Attack Speeder: 2× hunter-killer missiles 85

4 Dark Furies: + 1 Chooser of the Slain (melta bombs) 180

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Strike Squadron

• 3 Predators: magna-melta cannons 360

 

LORDS OF WAR

Corvus Corax: Decapitation Strike

 

3,000 points

 

I actually hit 2000 and then 2500 and it looked pretty good at those levels too:

- Tactical blob starts on the board with Chaplain and Maun, preferably Infiltrated into cover to provide a nice Deep Strike zone.

- Corax and the Dark Furies can start on the board or Deep Strike, but Corax wants to be running solo once he's up the board.

- Javelins can Outflank or Deep Strike as necessary, unloading 4 missiles each into side or rear armour.

- Predators can move up and take out almost anything - magna-meltas are Strength 8, AP1, Large Blast, Melta!

- Mor Deythan in Rhinos Infiltrate, then Scout, then move up and disembark their cargo. Use "Fatal Strike" and those auto-hitting flamers with Shred and Rending will kill anything.

- drop the plasma Support Squad 1st turn where it can knock out something. The other Tactical Squad in the pod is for getting to an objective anywhere on the field.

- graviton Rapiers are your anti-tank. Infiltrate them into good firing lines and they'll do well.

 

Edit: I should note I'm not saying you should necessarily take this list, but it's one example of the strength of the XIXth.

[temneb]

I thought the Mor Deythan had implacable advance and where thus scoring also?

[Slips]

They do but they'll usually be 'Danger Close' and a savvy opponent will nuke them first and foremost. No-one wants to eat Twin-Linked Rending Flamers for days.

[MorgothNL]

I thought the Mor Deythan had implacable advance and where thus scoring also?

 

I'm also looking into RG as my next army and this statement, and Slipstreams agreeing with it, make me think I'm missing some erreta or update?

In ICL I don't see the implacabel advance mentioned.. where does it state that?

[Caillum]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

[MorgothNL]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

Ah yes, I looked at that, but missed it cause it was mentioned in a sum with other units. Thank you :)

[defl0]

So, if I was going to go all foot sloggers, I would start with vets.

 

10 vets with scoring, fearless and melta bombs and maybe a power axe or two is a scary fricken squad X 6. It's basically everything you could ever want with tank hunting. 

 

Also for the mor deythan, I don't think you get into threat range with things like flamers... An interesting alternative might actually be combi-grenade launchers. (Lol. I know! who ever took that?!?!)

 

Overall though, I think Dark fury squads and melta vets sounds like a scary as hell army combo that does well against tanks and infantry. 

 

Finally, I love me 20 man tac squad with a chaplain. Fits well in this build. 

 

Also, rapier artillery fit well too. 

[temneb]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'm going to mull over this for a bit. Play some proxies while I paint up my WE

[MorgothNL]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'm going to mull over this for a bit. Play some proxies while I paint up my WE

Let us know what you come up with regarding list and the playtesting of it. I'm looking to start a similar list as soon as RG get Corax or Dark Fury models (to convince me to start RG and not IF).

 

I really wonder how well all the infiltrating will perform, especially with smaller Mor Deythan squads. 

 

Getting AT in a list like this is quite hard (especially cause I don't want to use static models like rapiers) and the RG special units can't have squad wide melta bombs -.- .

[Slips]

Its pretty hard to beat 10 Tac Vets with Melta Bombs and Tank Hunters (melta guns optional) in a Dreadclaw.

 

Fireworks pretty much guaranteed even vs most superheavies.

[MorgothNL]

Its pretty hard to beat 10 Tac Vets with Melta Bombs and Tank Hunters (melta guns optional) in a Dreadclaw.

 

Fireworks pretty much guaranteed even vs most superheavies.

But this also starts at 325pts, which is quite something to 'throw away' if its 'just' against a spartan or other non-super heavy vehicle.

Besides, assuming you can get them into combat unharmed, 5 or 6 will be overkill already vs most targets (cause of the meltabombs+tank hunter). Having 10 will only be a waste I think, cause they will got shot to pieces after their first target destroyed anyways. 

 

But I do wonder how well 10 of these will perform when starting infiltrated. 2 squads of those are my main AT in my RG list atm (also don't have the fast slots left for Anvillus)

[Slips]

If they kill a spartan theyve already made their points back AND they just stranded the deathstar unit inside out in the open to get shot to death.

 

Killing a typhon in 1 go for that much points is 100% worth it too.