Wilace Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Hello everyone! I am novice at playing WH40k and I have a question about my little army. Oh, and I'm sorry for my English;) I want to make small cult-skitarii army for playing with various opponents. The main idea of my army is the multipurpose and universal army without choice of units (all units is needed for playing), and I don't want to buy additional units in the future except one box of battle servitors. Units I have now: Tech-priest Dominus 1 unit of grav-destroyers 1 unit of Kastelan robots Also I have a box of 10 skitarii guys which I planning to build 5 vanguards and 5 rangers. So question is: what should I get for second troops in my cult mech to make universal army? I'm thinking of additional grav-destroyers or arc-breachers. It would be nice to hear your opinion. Thank you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Grav destroyers ;) just because super pretty models Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Depends a little on what you are facing. But Destroyers are much more flexible, since to a certain degree grav and plasma can deal with vehicles as well. Against a AV heavy meta, arc breachers are realy nice because of the great range. Torsion canon was for me always a waste of points, but I still keep them with me just for fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I run one big unit of Destroyers, who are joined by the Dominus. They are important and deadly, which is why they need a tank. In addition I run two small units of Breachers with Haywire to kill tanks. They are smaller and less threatening, which is why they do not really need a character. But that is my philosophy of playing. I know some players who run their Destroyers without a tank and in small units and resort to line of sight to keep them safe. It primarily comes down to how you play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Destroyers are really good. I quite enjoy thier multipurpose nature. As for which to use. If your running warcomvocation then plasma. Otherwise grav is great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 The only reason I'm considering Breachers is for the Holy Requisitioner formation - a mix of 2 parts arc and 1 part torsion. Otherwise, my love affair with plasma weaponry would have my attention focused entirely on Destroyers with culverins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 The only reason I'm considering Breachers is for the Holy Requisitioner formation - a mix of 2 parts arc and 1 part torsion. Otherwise, my love affair with plasma weaponry would have my attention focused entirely on Destroyers with culverins. Unfortunately, even regular lists need it to handle AV13/14 walls like Necrons, Mech Guard or IK lists. Pure lists that is. If you are getting you anti-AV elsewhere, then it is all fair game, of cause ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I really like keeping 1-2 units of grav or plasma destroyers in reserve. That way they can threaten anything that is 30-36" away from my table edge. This massively increases their threat area and allows me control more space. If you go second this also reduces the number of turns your opponent can shoot them. Say they come in turn 2 then they have avoided two turns of my opponents shooting and only sacrificed one of their own turns of shooting. I find this allows me to plug gaps in my line as the game goes on and helps keep the destroyers around for longer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilace Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share Posted November 13, 2015 Does anyone use hydraulic claw on breachers? They might become more usable in close combat, is it worth? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Nah. With just 1 attack it is useless. Haywire is okay, because on the charge, it is usually enough to remove 3 HP against regular vehicles. Beyond that, they will either not get there and get shot to pieces. I wouldn't invest in Breachers at all, their vanilla setup is nice and tight ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Grav Destroyers and Arc Breachers are both very solid choices. Close combat upgrades are useless. Torsion cannon is useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Torsion cannon is useless. Not necessarily - there is a specific niche for this weapon. The heavy arc rifle is great against vehicles, and can be turned on most infantry units with decent results. However, it will have problems with larger non-vehicle models. The torsion cannon excels against MCs/GCs such as the larger Tau battlesuits, Tyranid creatures or Eldar constructs. It's also more useful against multi-wound MEQs and TEQs like Grey Knight Paladins. It's not as good against vehicles as the heavy arc rifle, but that doesn't mean that it's not good at all. The two balance each other quite well. In most cases, it's on a lower tier compared to both arc Breachers and grav Destroyers. It's incredibly useful in the Holy Requisitioner formation, which mitigates its shorter range and doesn't have access to the grav Destroyer. As always, different tools are better at different tasks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I don't like anything that has a super extreme niche, and sucks the rest of the time. I am blessed with a wide variety of opponents, and I don't like to tailor my list. Also, if the niche we're talking about is Tau suits, the Torsion cannon is actually terrible at this. Those suits will intercept your deep striking Breachers before you fire. If they don't, and you actually get a chance to fire, they mitigate half of your shots (you know, the half that actually hits) just by sticking a toe in cover (because MC/GMC rules are dumb). Then the shots that actually get through all that kill a drone, and then the suit kills you next turn. "Different tools are better at different tasks" is a meaningless platitude in the setting of a game where you are limited by points in what you can bring. You can bring tools that will be useful in most common situations, or you can bring tools that are mostly useless except for that one time where they are in just the right place at just the right time with just the right target. Your choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The point is that, just because it isn't the best tool for a particular task, that doesn't mean that it's mostly useless. It's still a S8 AP2 shot - there are plenty of uses for that. You don't have to be a list tailor to find them. Again, if you're running a Holy Requisitioner formation it can be extremely useful as being in the right place at the right time is the entire point. If you're using a different formation or detachment, feel free to take grav Destroyers or anything else you'd prefer. That preference doesn't detract from their usefulness in the hands of a player that enjoys the unit and the knowledge of how to apply it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I don't like anything that has a super extreme niche, and sucks the rest of the time. I am blessed with a wide variety of opponents, and I don't like to tailor my list. Also, if the niche we're talking about is Tau suits, the Torsion cannon is actually terrible at this. Those suits will intercept your deep striking Breachers before you fire. If they don't, and you actually get a chance to fire, they mitigate half of your shots (you know, the half that actually hits) just by sticking a toe in cover (because MC/GMC rules are dumb). Then the shots that actually get through all that kill a drone, and then the suit kills you next turn. "Different tools are better at different tasks" is a meaningless platitude in the setting of a game where you are limited by points in what you can bring. You can bring tools that will be useful in most common situations, or you can bring tools that are mostly useless except for that one time where they are in just the right place at just the right time with just the right target. Your choice. Terminus your so mean. Lmao!!! I imagine you on your computer being like "F" these guys. But always make good competive points, so i respect it. The point is that, just because it isn't the best tool for a particular task, that doesn't mean that it's mostly useless. It's still a S8 AP2 shot - there are plenty of uses for that. You don't have to be a list tailor to find them. Again, if you're running a Holy Requisitioner formation it can be extremely useful as being in the right place at the right time is the entire point. If you're using a different formation or detachment, feel free to take grav Destroyers or anything else you'd prefer. That preference doesn't detract from their usefulness in the hands of a player that enjoys the unit and the knowledge of how to apply it. Holy Requisition (HR) is best suited with all torsions and a targeter skull. Atleast I used to think this, but actually you can't even use the skull the turn you deep strike because you come on in the movement phase, and the skull goes off at the start of your turn. Same reason the formation kinda sucks at canticles. that said it's a good formation for camping out objectives easily, but it's a rather high cost investment. Destroyers are better and if you are worried about thier safety just put them on reserves and let em roll on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4224996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I just really like the fluff and playstyle behind it. A tech priest watching through the eyes of his Skitarii recon team, and dropping in with heavy firepower when they find the prize he's been searching for. There's a similar scene in the first Soul Drinkers novel that always captured my imagination. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 yeah i know a lot of players are anal about what they take and points cost this and statistically that and blah blah blah.... Honestly give me a unit and i'll make an effort to make it work....that's the challenge, not "I don't take that it won't work for me,i crunched the numbers it's not ever going to work in my meta waaahhh " ,... grow a pair that'd be like saying "I play chess but don't like the bishop compared to the queen...she's always going to beat it so I leave him in his spot . Mithril Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilace Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 Mithril, I think chess a little bit incorrect example because it absolutely symmetrical and balanced game unlike our grim dark future;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Mithril, I think chess a little bit incorrect example because it absolutely symmetrical and balanced game unlike our grim dark future;) Out there exist those who would disagree with you :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilace Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 I imagined chess where you can take three queens and 10 bishops against army that consists 30 pawns. And castle-formations, of course! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I imagined chess where you can take three queens and 10 bishops against army that consists 30 pawns. And castle-formations, of course! Well, that wouldn't be Chess anymore now, would it? In fact, the Queen side will not be able to win, because no matter which pawn the take out, it will always be covered by another pawn. There are no factors like BS or WS or number of attacks to balance the asymmetric armies, unlike 40k. I would also call 40k pretty balanced as it is, bar two things. The easy access to ranged D and Jetpack move of Jetbikes in the Eldar book and the universal access to Grav Cannons with Amps in the SM book. Fix those issues and we should have a more level playing field bar a few discrepancies (anyone seen CSM on the table recently? ...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Well all armues can bring competive list and some list like orks can bring curve ball list that completely defy the meta. Where the game lacks jn balance is: * D weapons are very stupid. This is partly just my opinion. But there is no way to balance a chance to completely remove a very eppxpensjve model from the game. It'll always be too expensive or too cheap. *On the unit level. Where a lot of complaint really come from, and is actually addressed in this very thread. Is some units are just way too underpowered and need to be adjust. Or in I think a much rqrwr case some units are too strong like jet bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Moderation is something that appears to be sorely lacking. It speaks to both of your concerns. I have no problem with Destroyer weapons, as long as they're limited either in application (combat versus ranged) or number (Lords of War versus Elites and Heavy Support). The same goes for Eldar jetbikes - scatterlasers aren't the problem, the fact that every single one can take them is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4225639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I don't like anything that has a super extreme niche, and sucks the rest of the time. I am blessed with a wide variety of opponents, and I don't like to tailor my list. Also, if the niche we're talking about is Tau suits, the Torsion cannon is actually terrible at this. Those suits will intercept your deep striking Breachers before you fire. If they don't, and you actually get a chance to fire, they mitigate half of your shots (you know, the half that actually hits) just by sticking a toe in cover (because MC/GMC rules are dumb). Then the shots that actually get through all that kill a drone, and then the suit kills you next turn. "Different tools are better at different tasks" is a meaningless platitude in the setting of a game where you are limited by points in what you can bring. You can bring tools that will be useful in most common situations, or you can bring tools that are mostly useless except for that one time where they are in just the right place at just the right time with just the right target. Your choice. Terminus your so mean. Lmao!!! I imagine you on your computer being like "F" these guys. But always make good competive points, so i respect it. I swear to you I am the picture of a gentle soul! *cough* Anyway, Age of Darkness rules deal with two of the most aggravating aspects of 40K: 1.) Allies. Wraithguard with D flamers are pretty bad, but way worse when using a Dark Eldar webway portal. Thunderwolves and Black Knights are both annoying units, but obnoxious when combined into a big ball of Thunder-Knights, etc. Drop pods for everyone!! The modified AoD chart (basically moving everyone one step down from the 40K chart) fixes all of this. 2.) Formations. In an of themselves, formations are not a bad thing. When everything can score, I would much rather see a (often troop-heavy) formation that mirrors an organization of troops from the fluff, rather than the random assortment of models you sometimes get with a standard CAD. The formations also occasionally can provide a unique hook or an assist for an otherwise weak unit (yes, the unit should have been made better to begin with, but at least this way it gets "fixed" somewhat, I have high hopes the next campaign book gives IG a shot in the arm until their book gets updated). Problem is, the balance of the formations is just as lopsided as the units they are modifying, so you get already tough units getting tougher (Wraiths), already shooty units getting shootier (Tau), and then stuff like Convocation or Gladius where you are frequently playing 500+ points up on your opponent. Rites of War are basically formations, but tend to have way harsher restrictions (decapitation strike notwithstanding), and I feel are a better way to do it. Everyone still ends up using the same FOC, with only a few reshufflings of options and a couple of additional bonuses/restrictions. I am looking forward to the re-balancing of the existing rites and new ones that are coming next summer (although annoyed too since I just got the red book 2 months ago). The main thing 30K needs to make it even better is to improve the standard troop selections of the Legions. Many of the "bad" rites are only bad because they make you lots and lots of bad troops. That is why Pride of the Legion is so popular. If they improve the standard troops, a lot more builds suddenly become viable. Let Tactical Squads use Fury of the Legion after they move. Give Breachers siege mantlets (re-roll all failed armour saves, not just vs. blast/template) and a big discount on melta-bombs. Make all jump pack equipped troops 5 points cheaper per guy across the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4226017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SydonianDragoon404 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Destroyers every time, grav is just sooooo good and you really need it to deal with things like Riptides and Wraithknights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/315986-breachers-or-destroyers/#findComment-4226047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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