Breachers or Destroyers?

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Terminus - That man speaks the truth. 30k is the more balanced system now. Oh how the tables have turned :D

[Hewkers]

I had my first game last night, I found the torsion breachers were very good. The D3 hull points on a pen just wrecks vehicles when it goes. through admittedly hunting MC is where they excel, but I like the versatility over the arc rifle. although my grav destroyers did wipe our a flying daemon prince! twin linked canticle really helped!

[Frater Cornelius]

I feel that Torsion lacks consistency. Sometimes it wrecks a vehicle in one shot, but sometimes is doesn't even hit with its mediocre BS. Inconsistency is not desirable if you want performance. If you want fun, by all means ;)

[mmimzie]

So torsion cannons are good in a bubble, but grav does it all better for the most part.  i'll assume your shooting at something T6 or less, and it has a 4+ armor save (just because) and has multiple wounds. You'll average about 4.5 wounds with grav and 2.5 with torsion cannons (units of 3). Now is that Better armor save really going to save you??? most of the time not really :/.

 

Then when you look at armor (av 11 for this):  a min squad of breachers could do a passible 2.9 average wounds (with a chance to blow it up). That said destroyers will only do 1.5, but if you score two wounds you've blown it up due to immobilized, and if you just immobilized it's basically destroyed for all purposes out side of victory points. (with reroll both will pretty much always blow up thier target's turn 1, and skull can also make both of these units even better at anti tank).

 

So in comparison breachers are kinda suck at killing MCs, and out side of tanks what are the breachers gonna kill. If the destroy threatens all targets the breachers do as good or better, and also threat squads of marines or even bikes or something. Then why bring the breachers when the destroyers are so flexible. 

[Terminus]

The skull will not help destroyers, since they don't roll armour penetration.

[mmimzie]

As for 40k formations and allies. I think those are more fluff issues.

 

Tau are strong out side of allies. You don't need allies to bring a flying hive tryrant list. Eldar D weapons and scatter laser spam will still be a thing.

 

As for the formation. I do think really strong stuff like decelurian (sp) should have some heavy restrictions placed on it, but as you noted in think formations are a great way to keep weaker armies relevant and about be employed morem though once fixs come out there needs to be a way to keep those formation buts from buffing the units once they are fixed.

 

The Tau combine shooting thing. Isn't really all that OP and only does any good against death star style armies. Like cohort cybernetica and wolves. Against anything else it really only makes some of the weaker units better.

 

As I said allies are more of a fluff battle. I can see why different armies like space wolves and dark angles would team up, but to do it ALL the time. Are they even space wolves or dark angles anymore??

 

As for needing more troops. I've always felt this was kind of silly. The points you some on units should be worth it. If having more troops balances your list. Thanks that just means either your troops suck or your other options are way too strong. I also understand the move toward formations as a way for GW to make some cash. Making models they've already released more attractive, and allowing you to take more of them.

[Terminus]

your troops suck or your other options are way too strong.

Both?

[MithrilForge]

LOL it sounds like you guys play "whingehammer 40 rants"

Mithril

[Targetlock]

I've got opponents at the moment complaining how OP the destroyers with grav cannons are at the moment, not that OP in my opinion compared to some forces like the cheesy tau and elder stuff.

[A D-B]

I've got opponents at the moment complaining how OP the destroyers with grav cannons are at the moment, not that OP in my opinion compared to some forces like the cheesy tau and elder stuff.

 

It feels pretty fair to me. Grav-Destroyers are strong Troops options, sure, and can shoot like heck. But you pay through the nose for them, you only get 3, and they're nowhere near invincible.

[Frater Cornelius]

Really? People complain about Destroyers? Are there no Eldar or Battle Companies around there? Oo

[mmimzie]

Plus even though they have T5 they only have a 4+ save, and thier damage is hindered by BS3. Though they can be nasty with a tier 2 or 3 canticle.

[Terminus]

Grav destroyers are a very solid investment. They are no rapier platforms, but they are very good.

 

With even tier 1 canticles, you get up to two turns of effective BS3.5 (BS4 at tier 2).

 

None of the Mechanicus stuff is on the level of Tech-Xenos (Necrons, Tau, Eldar) or Marines. The only thing that comes close is Convocation who can get 500 extra points, and even then you want to add Astartes drop pods.

[Targetlock]

Yeah that's how I feel about them, plus I wish with them being half robotic that they would have feel no pain :( plus those other armies have mobile transports and vehicles that can easily outmanoeuvre them.

the opponents that complain mainly are the marine players, they sure don't like watching their marines die on 3+, plus I get regularly screwed over by a lack of ignores cover which is a real pain against all the jinking fast vehicles and other nasty stuff.  

[Kilofix]

Grav Destroyers then Arc Breachers.

 

But nowadays I'm running lots of Kats; 6 Grav Destroyers and 6 Arc Breachers (the latter in the Rec Formation).

 

The Robots are cool and hard to kill but I find that most of the damage is really dished out by my Kats (both Grav and Arc).

[mmimzie]

What are your jink save concerne. Which particular jink save give you trouble??

[Kilofix]

I'm assuming Eldar Scatbikes or Ravenwing Bikes with Darkshroud?

[mmimzie]

yeah both of those are tough to deal with for  cult mech/skits, but they are pretty tough for everyone to deal with. Really it's the MSU nature of the scatbikes that makes them tough to deal with. One bike lives and passes it's leader ship; you'll never want to waste shots trying to finish the stupid thing off. It's like flies, easy to kill in mass a pain when alone.

 

Best counter is your skitters. Nice vanilla unit of vanguard. Problem though I feel like vanguard either need to be played with pods or in mass and vanilla. Been considering a nice horde style skit list.  7 units of vanguard, 2 units of 2 dragoons, 4 ongers, and 6 electro priest in numinous conclave. With that sort of army you have sooooo much stuff that those scatter laser won't take out enough stuff before they start to get shot up. Atleast that's the hope ^.^

 

Only thing cult brings to taking down jet bikes would be robot or electro priest set to bug zapper mode at T2 or higher. Even then it'll take a few turns to get your bots where they need to be to do that, and the priest wont live that long against scatter lasers.

[Kilofix]

If my opponent runs either of those I add an Acheron myself lol.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Don't forget to shot the phosphor weapons with the Destroyers first.

It is not ignore cover, but can help if you actually manage to cause a wound.

 

Up to now I have only tried Arc Breachers (I don't have any Destroyers yet). As I said, the long range Arc Rifle is pretty good against AV heavy armys.

I have 2 troops of 4 little tank-mans each, 3 with Arc and 1 Torsion for fun. When they are fully painted I want to field them as Holy Requisitioners. Depending on the Tactial Objectives you draw I hope they are not only able to pop 1 or 2 tanks on arrival, but also to grab some objectives and earn some victory points for me.

But one question here:

If I field the HR formation as my only cult choice, let's say together with some Skitarii, can I use the Canticles then for the turn they arrive ? Because on beginning of the turn they arrive, there is no CM unit on the table.

[mmimzie]

Canticles have no effect on a turn where all your cult is coming from reserves.

[CommodusXIII]

Canticles are chosen at the beginning of the turn.  However, they're based on the number of Cult Mechanicus units currently on the battlefield.  This selection occurs before the Holy Requisitioner arrives via Deep Strike, so that first turn you will not have any benefit from Canticles.

[Targetlock]

mainly dark eldar raiders and vehicles jinking on a 2+ on the first turn thanks to night fighting plus force organisation buff, then still pretty good the rest of the game too.

[Kilofix]

Just a data point. 6 Grav Kats easily killed a Wraithknight in 1 round of shooting today.

 

But I guess that's to be expected, and cost wise they're more expensive.

[mmimzie]

Hmmmm phos or Flamers. I've been debating this all day after my game against khorne daemon kin. I was either out of range for phos or snap shooting with the thing for most of the game x.x. I did well and won, but i'm thinking maybe flamers might be the best bet. 3 auto hits per guy with no cover would really rock. v.v but remodling the guys would suck and buying more would be lame too.

What do you think??? I just think flamers + litany of the electromancer..... man you'd threaten so many of the quick charging units with that, but this is only useful against some armiers. Though phos lets you help with cover saves, but range is really only like a 30 inch threat range (move + shoot) and even then only 1 shot per most of the time.

edit: mind you i only ever run take all comers list so i'm looking at it from that stand point.

Edit2: also I had a rules question. If you use a torsion cannon on something that has FNP, does D3 wounds happen and then you take that many FNPs or do you take 1 FNP and if failed then D3 wounds??

I ask because both events happen at the same time. I assume be ause its your turn you get to pick?