Calth Anchor Theory

[Kol Saresk]

I dunno. Imagine the WarpStorm that would have been created with a Betrayal had Kor Pharon* and Erebus actually ensured the destruction of the 200,000 or so Ultramarines at Cath would have been larger and more powerful.

 

 

It probably have been much stronger if Calth was just a quick A and B affair, but the question is, how long it would have lasted. My theory actually runs parallel to the Khorne Daemonkin's method of summoning daemons. For those not familiar with the specifics, the Khorne Daemonkin are mortal and Astartes Khorne worshippers who only fight with the goal of summonjng daemons to reality. Because their faith and willingness for self-sacrifice if necessary is so absolute, the daemons they summon tend to have a stronger presence on the material plane. But they are only tethered to reality as long as they are able to continue offering up skulls taken in battle, whether it be theirs or the enemy's.

 

That's what I believe is happening with the Ruinstorm. I still need to find my copy of KnF before I can fully confirm or deny Prodigal's post, but I'm still certain in the original theory.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Again, "Lorgar states"...

If we are to take as gospel what he said, then how do we explain his anger or previous comments with Horus colluding with Lorgar to have Calth as a platform?

The objective was take the Ultramarines out of the war, then that didn't happen and the objective is now "turn Angron into a Daemon Prince". We don't know if the latter was always intended or just a new objective, but we know Horus and Lorgar worked on Calth together.

 

 

 

More binary argumenting. This is getting far too common on here. it's not because the ultimate goal was not reached that an action fails. You can't argue that it wasn't success base on knowledge of the overall outcome of the war. Otherwise, by that logic, Isstvan was a failure. Had the betreyal at Calth failed, the war would have ended there and then with a win for the Imperium.  The Ultramarines were taken out of the war severely long enough, to the point were Imperium Secondus was declared.  

 

"The Ultramarines recorded their casualties at the moment when Guilliman and the remains of the XIIIth Legion fleet departed Calth at 119,422 Legiones Astartes fallen in combat, with a further 28,392 rendered combat-incapable by battle injuries and trauma."  3 for 1 on legionnaries sounds like a great trade to me.

 

Did the plan work out to the letter? No it did not. Did it accomplish many of it's objectives? yes it did. 

 

Also, Angron's ascension Was something Lorgar planned since Isstvan. When he saw him at the campfire marchmellow gathering he knew he had to save him, as no one else would. It was never "changed to" after the fact. Both were interconnected.

 

 

The Ultramarines were taken out of the fight as much as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels actually, which actually means not at all.

 

You shouldn't be so disparaging towards other's opinions as you have missed major elements like those above.

 

Yes Calth achieved some aims set out by Lorgar but the most important aim at the time was destruction/elimination of the Ultramarines as a threat to the Heresy. In fact, the Ultramarines almost defeated 2 Legions and ruined Lorgar's plans if it weren't for crazy heroics from Warhound Titans saving them from an Imperator Titan - had it fired it's main guns, A D-B himself declared it would have won there and then.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if this fluff is a 100% moot any more but wasn't calth the word bearers istavan cleansing? The marines that were believed to follow lodgar through blind obedience and not in the primordial truth culled and sacrificed on the anvil of war?

No. Calth was meant to get rid of the more unruly elements that wouldn't obey Lorgar in all things. IIRC, Kurtha Sedd in Censure by Nick Kyme says that his sin was following the wrong demagogue, in reference to Kor Phaeron. In a way, you could say Lorgar sacrificed those who would choose Chaos and self-interest over loyalty to him.

Prodigal: I don't recall the plan being as extreme as a supernova, just a mere enlargement of the Veridian star until it reached its next phase and simply burned away the surface of Calth. I'll try looking for the quote as soon as I can. On the offchance you beat me to it, would it be too much to ask for you to provide the quote? I'll at least be the next couple of hours so help is appreciated.

See I dispute that Calth was purely about creating the Ruinstorm through gross betrayal and human sacrifice whilst cleansing the Word Bearers from negative elements in the Legion.

1) Lorgar sent substantial fleet elements and war material in the form of titans. These things are crucial to prosecuting the wider conflict.

2) Space Marines are only expendable if you're a total tactical fool.

3) Most importantly, what source did we have that Lorgar actually saw a substantial amount of his Legion as expendable and better off dead? Argel Tal? Oh because he's not corrupt or can be wrong?

Let's be fair - he was defending his Legion's failure by saying "well they were supposed to die there to create a diversion". He wasn't unbiased and it was boastful to say as he by implication was more important to his Primarch than the Word Bearers at Calth.

4) Lastly, Lorgar berated Kor Phaeron for his failure to destroy a weakened and trapped Ultramarines Legion.

Summary

So looking at these elements we can't really conclude that the Word Bearers were at Calth as a sacrifice.

Rather, they adapted their plans to sacrifice after the Ultramarines completely U-turned their situation.

Actually we have Underground War where Lorgar tells Argel Tal that he wants the Gal Vorbak for the Calth campaign to only be made up of those too blinded by hate, I believe was how it put. And then in the new novel The Unburdened, Lorgar tells Kurtha Sedd that the fleet has left Calth but to go ahead and keep fighting anyways because their purpose is to just sow Chaos.

And if you're attacking 250,000 Ultramarines plus Imperial Army, Mechanicum Skitarii and Titan Legio support, yeah, you're going to throw in things like mortal soldiers and Titans to back up your own Astartes.

Calth isn't Lorgar going "Here Ultramarines, kill the chafe in my Legion and hopefully they'll do some damage before they get snuffed out." calth was a sacrifice, it was going to burn. The theory is just that Calth was meant to burn longer than the other sacrifices and so Lorgar only put his more unruly elements into the campaign so they could keep the fire burning and not be in his way.

The reasons Erebus and Kor Phaeron were sent as commanders is because they think they run Lorgar and the rest of the show. Look at how Erebus tried to argue with Lorgar about seeing the future too and knowing what could be done with it. Those two were sent to Calth to be put in their place, with the possible icing of being killed in the process. They're creatures of ego. And what's the best way to put arrogant individuals in their place? To break their egos. That means doing things like publicly berating Erebus in front of Angron and Khârn and pointing out that he ran away faster than his own ship, which in his arrogance is named "Destiny's Hand". I mean let's face it, if Erebus was such a valuable asset, then why did Lorgar sick Khârn on him?

And the other question that should be asked is why Lorgar never sent a fleet to pick up or reinforce the troops on Calth? It could be done, as shown by Censure and Garro: Legion of One. Both Garro and Thiel not only go to Calth, but leave again as well. Apparently all you do is time it to the radiation storms.

But he doesn't even make that move. Heck, they didn't even plan an extraction. Kor Phaeron's shooting weapons of mass destruction into a sun and what does he do? He stays, long enough for Guilliman to stay to launch a counterattack. The Word Bearers and Ultramarines are fighting in orbit and on the ground literally right up until the solar flare hits the planet. The Unburdened shows they were fighting each other just to get into the arcologies while the mortals are dropping like flies all around them from the radiation. And if Prodigal is right in that it was meant to be a supernova and just an enlargement of the sun, then it should have been even worse because apparently everyone from Erebus and Kor Phaeron down to the lowliest XVII Legionary decided that they should wait until it hits the planet to try and leave. And do nothing to pick up the super valuable troops from the ground.

I mean, I don't know about you, but personally, if I had been in charge of the campaign, after the initial attack, I would have been redeploying my troops on the ground to block access to the major entranceways to the arcologies while the fleet kills off any remaining ships.

No more boarding parties or salvage operations, just hijack the defense grid and then bombard anything that doesn't fly an allied identifier until nothing remains but its component atoms. Wouldn't really fortify my positions on the ground because I'd want them deployed right next to their carriers and gunships so when it's time to go, they can just strap in.

And then, when I started shooting atomic weapons into the sun, I'd start picking up my Astartes and my Titans, even if it was under fire. After all, they're supposed to be a super valuable resource. It'd be foolhardy to wait until the damage from the sun actually reaches the planet to try and save anyone.

But from we can see of the actual events in Know No Fear, nothing like that was done. There was no extraction plan for the ground troops or the fleet. Heck, the fleet only left before the radiation hit because they were running from Guilliman's counterattack. Otherwise they probably would have been hit by it first.

So personally, if you want evidence that the troops at Calth were not given the highest priority, I wouldn't submit the testimonies of Argel Tal, Kurtha Sedd and Lorgar Aurelian. I'd just give you a copy of Know No Fear and ask if at any point, an extraction plan other than "Run away!" was ever mentioned in the entirety of the novel.

Again, Lorgar only said the "unruly" Gal Vorbak. Consider them elite troops. He wanted them held back. That doesn't mean that the Word Bearers were all such.

 

It's assumption based on part of the information.

 

Gal Vorbak unruly elements only doesn't equal Word Bearers only.

 

The reason the Word Bearers didn't do many of the things you mentioned on Calth is because they were winning until the orbital defences were turned on them.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

Again, "Lorgar states"...

If we are to take as gospel what he said, then how do we explain his anger or previous comments with Horus colluding with Lorgar to have Calth as a platform?

The objective was take the Ultramarines out of the war, then that didn't happen and the objective is now "turn Angron into a Daemon Prince". We don't know if the latter was always intended or just a new objective, but we know Horus and Lorgar worked on Calth together.

 

 

More binary argumenting. This is getting far too common on here. it's not because the ultimate goal was not reached that an action fails. You can't argue that it wasn't success base on knowledge of the overall outcome of the war. Otherwise, by that logic, Isstvan was a failure. Had the betreyal at Calth failed, the war would have ended there and then with a win for the Imperium.  The Ultramarines were taken out of the war severely long enough, to the point were Imperium Secondus was declared.  

 

"The Ultramarines recorded their casualties at the moment when Guilliman and the remains of the XIIIth Legion fleet departed Calth at 119,422 Legiones Astartes fallen in combat, with a further 28,392 rendered combat-incapable by battle injuries and trauma."  3 for 1 on legionnaries sounds like a great trade to me.

 

Did the plan work out to the letter? No it did not. Did it accomplish many of it's objectives? yes it did. 

 

Also, Angron's ascension Was something Lorgar planned since Isstvan. When he saw him at the campfire marchmellow gathering he knew he had to save him, as no one else would. It was never "changed to" after the fact. Both were interconnected.

 

 

The Ultramarines were taken out of the fight as much as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels actually, which actually means not at all.

 

You shouldn't be so disparaging towards other's opinions as you have missed major elements like those above.

 

 

Hello pot, meet kettle. You've been bluntly dismissing arguments here, ignoring counter-points and making some with fallacies. Example from the above quote.

Ultramarines presence at the siege of Terra - None, too busy salvaging the pieces of the broken 500 worlds.

Dark Angel presence at the seige of Terra - also None, they were off chasing shadows of a broken legion.

Blood Angels doing a wreckless pass through the warp to get to terra, likely losing tons of ships in the process - check.

 

Anyways, I am done here.

[Captain Idaho]

That's unfair. I'm engaging I'm good humoured debate, not accusing others of being binary.

 

Anyway, a classic mistake people make in this forum is get new Heresy information and assume it's all we need and marry it with what we knew from the design studio. In this case, that the stories of 3 Legions have ended until the invasion of Earth.

 

We don't know why or how any of the 3 Legions end up in Terra, but we know they are all fighting effective and combat ready despite Lorgar's attempts with the Ultramarines, the Night Lords attempts with the DA and Erebus' plans for the Blood Angels.

[depthcharge12]

Uh the Dark Angels decimate the Night Lords as a cohesive fighting legion and caused enough problems to the Death Gaurd's number 1 so much that Mortarion is getting involved. Sure they're not at Terra, but they're actually getting stuff done by depriving Horus of manpower and resources to take Terra. I don't think they're "out of the fight" using these examples.

[Memento Of Prospero]

That's unfair. I'm engaging I'm good humoured debate, not accusing others of being binary.

 

Anyway, a classic mistake people make in this forum is get new Heresy information and assume it's all we need and marry it with what we knew from the design studio. In this case, that the stories of 3 Legions have ended until the invasion of Earth.

 

Not going to continue on the subject, but I would like to address this part.

I did not resort to personal attacks. I labeled the type of argumentation you are using. There is a world of difference here, one is a sophism, and the other is logical debating. You on the other hand used plenty of sarcasm to berate arguments. You are being judgemental far more than I have been.

 

@ Dethpcharge12, the night lords were a liability to begin with and were promptly sent away by Horus. By their own admission they are not a proper fighting force as they have as much discipline as a band of roaming orks. I did not say they were not fighting, they were just not fighting where it mattered in the end. Defend Ultramar all you want and win Tramass, you will lose if the Emperor falls.

[Captain Idaho]

In the way you labelled my argument you were being dismissive and it came across as condescending.

[Memento Of Prospero]

In the way you labelled my argument you were being dismissive and it came across as condescending.

 

This is the quote :

 

 

 

More binary argumenting. This is getting far too common on here. it's not because the ultimate goal was not reached that an action fails. You can't argue that it wasn't success base on knowledge of the overall outcome of the war. Otherwise, by that logic, Isstvan was a failure. Had the betreyal at Calth failed, the war would have ended there and then with a win for the Imperium.  The Ultramarines were taken out of the war severely long enough, to the point were Imperium Secondus was declared.

 

"The Ultramarines recorded their casualties at the moment when Guilliman and the remains of the XIIIth Legion fleet departed Calth at 119,422 Legiones Astartes fallen in combat, with a further 28,392 rendered combat-incapable by battle injuries and trauma."  3 for 1 on legionnaries sounds like a great trade to me.

 

 

I labelled it and noted a trend, which was more of a personal frustration than condescending - I did not call you a plan or an ignorant as far as I can tell. I went on to explain why it didn't work. Probably a little plainly, but hardly condescending. 

 

Example of dismissal and condescending : 

 

 

 

The Ultramarines were taken out of the fight as much as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels actually, which actually means not at all.

You shouldn't be so disparaging towards other's opinions as you have missed major elements like those above.

 

No argumentation or explanation of fact, just a sarcasm and a judgmental quote.

 

We can disagree and debate, I love the back and forth as it generates great discussions, but be concise and develop and make sure you reply to all of the points your opponent brings up.

[Captain Idaho]

Doesn't matter as we clearly came across to each other in ways neither intended.

 

Moving back to the theory in OP...

 

It has merit though for different reasons. I dispute the blood shed was meant the Word Bearers themselves had to die initially as their number was too small anyway. However, continued carnage when plans change seems likely.

[Captain Idaho]

Is that not condescending, Wolf_Pack? I imagine you aren't realising how you yourself are coming across.

 

I don't need to pull apart every sentence someone makes to have a valid counter to their position, especially if my ffollowing point counters the entirety of their position.

 

This isn't essay writing.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Calth was of different importance to different people. Horus wanted the ultramarines gone. I believe in galaxy in flames he said "If the ultramarines are not stopped then all of this is for nothing". Clearly he wanted the ultramarines to be decimated.

 

Lorgar wanted to do the gods bidding, and used calth as a place to start the ruinstorm. 

[Marshal Rohr]

It really doesn't matter what the in universe characters points of view are. FW will eventually tell us what the outcome of Calth was and what it meant. No point measuring genitals over what Lorgar or Argel Tal said right now. If retaliation doesn't address it, Underworld book will.

[Kol Saresk]

I would strongly have to disagree with POV being irrelevant since Forgeworld's books are written from the POV perspective of a historian. To try and say one uninformed POV is more important than a directly involved POV makes absolutely no sense in my book.

 

@Idaho: This is the discussion between Kurtha Sedd and Lorgar in The Unburdened. Now, one weird thing to note is that Kurtha Sedd says the fleet was forced to leave. And I say it is weird because I don't know too many sane people who would think it is safe to keep a fleet in the vicinity of a star that is throwing radiation all over the place like fireworks on the 4th of July.

 

“+Kor Phaeron is gone, my child,+ Lorgar said. The primarch’s voice was rich, calm, sonorous. It was the sound of truth itself. +He will not answer. The fleet is gone. He has fled into the void. There will be no reinforcements.+

And yet…

+The Emperor is watching you.+

But he is not.

The tortured thoughts vanished as Lorgar’s words sank in and Kurtha Sedd dared to look up at the primarch. ‘I know the fleet was forced to leave the system, Lord Aurelian, but–’

+It will not return,+ said Lorgar.

A void opened up in Kurtha Sedd’s chest. In its abyssal depths, something stirred that he dared not name. He hung his head.

‘Then we too are betrayed. The Legion is abandoning the campaign on Calth.’

+Are you still fighting?+ There was no anger in the primarch’s tone. His calm was heavy as marble.

‘My lord, we are.’

+Then the campaign is not abandoned. Your forces are that campaign, even as I bring war to the rest of Ultramar.+

The cavern shook with enough force to dislodge large fragments of the ceiling. The Veridian star still raged, unseen, above.

‘The surface of Calth is lethal,’ said Kurtha Sedd, frustration[…]”

 

Excerpt From: Annandale, David. “The Unburdened.” Black Library, 2015-10-22T10:06:09Z. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/aan7-.l

[Captain Idaho]

The fleet was forced to leave because of the defence grid.

 

Consider that to the plot, the ships involved were wholly unconcerned with the Veridian star. In fact, what mention is there of such concern?

 

Real world science is not relevant to whether the ships can survive such things. If people can survive underground then a shielded star ship would similarly survive. (And no, science says people wouldn't survive underground)

 

As to the quote - Lorgar is just telling a son to fight and die. He's in no way doing an "as I have foreseen it" moment.

[Kol Saresk]

No, it doesn't conclusively prove my theory. But if it did, it wouldn't be a theory; it'd be fact. And it wouldn't serve the purpose of this topic, which is to help inspire discussion and debate to present other theories and so on.

 

But at the same time, in context, it could be used to provide circumstantial evidence for my theory. After all, Lorgar never mentioned that the campaign changed, just that there would be no reinforcements. Which is a departure from Betrayer when Lorgar was telling Erebus that the campaign was a "failure" because Guilliman was alive and so were the Ultramarines at Calth. Some of them anyways.

 

If a campaign is a failure, then why continue it? Of course, it could be countered that Lorgar was simply offering moral support to a doomed son.

 

That's kind of the point though, no one really knows lol.

 

It just strikes me as there being too many coincidences for it to not be at least somewhat planned. I mean heck, Lorgar being surprised by Guilliman being at Nuceria(after he knew he escaped Calth) was such a big thing to him. Someone who has been planning a campaign for forty years being surprised by that small a detail seems like a rather big to notice. But again, that's just me.

 

I mean, looking at it from your perspective, which I believe you put it as that it had merit for different reasons, but the numbers for the Word Bearers were too small to be a sacrifice, I believe it. To me, that doesn't make sense since it would the perfect sacrifice. Big enough to have value and therefore make a sacrifice, while at the same time being small enough it isn't like Lorgar is sacrificing half his Legion on something even Angron called a bad idea(Butcher's Nails).

 

Like I said, it is all circumstantial and is in no way meant to be some sort of "I'm right and you're wrong" type of thing.

[Captain Idaho]

No worries mate, it's good speculation. I still agree with you that Calth is/was the catalyst for "all this" but I just disagree on semantics such as why it is still being used in light of events.

 

It's funny really. Calth, in my opinion, was a failure for one objective though still a success for another objective, where as the burning of Ultramar was mostly a success for Lorgar as it achieved his 2 primary objectives.

 

Regarding a question of sacrifice - it's best looking at it from the perspective of the Chaos Gods (I know, I know. Stay with me please). They care about numbers and betrayal in this case. So massive numbers feeds like a raw fuel whilst exquisite delicatessen comes from gross betrayal. They need the former for power whilst the latter is catalyst and acts as a brief injection of rocket fuel.

 

In this, the Word Bearers are worthless except those betrayed by their own - the Word Bearers abandoned at Calth.

 

But this was not planned as such. It's more of an opportunist move by Lorgar. For evidence that this was not planned, as well as what I have mentioned previously (i.e. Lorgar's response to Erebus and Kor Phaeron) look to his surprise at Guilliman's counterattack. Why wouldn't he have expected that if the Ultramarines weren't supposed to be destroyed/taken out of the war?

[Kol Saresk]

I think his surprise was more at Guilliman himself being there, not the Ultramarines in total. Even then, the main part of the Calth campaign ended towards the beginning of the book, as did Erebus showing up on the Blessed Lady. So long before Nuceria, Lorgar is already aware that the Ultramarines fleet has fled Calth and that Guilliman had survived. So it seems more likely he simply expected Guilliman to be at different front, possibly Macragge to begin the rebuilding and regrouping effort rather than leading a fleet straight into another battle.

 

I mean let's face it, Nuceria wasn't exactly Guilliman's most brilliant tactical move. Or rather it wasn't handled with the expertise an a master tactician should have been able to bring to bear. So you can't exactly blame someone for thinking he wasn't in charge lol.

[Captain Idaho]

True that. You would have thought his best move would have been splitting his forces between full scale invasions of both Glorianna vessels first. He could have taken them whilst his fleet prevented his ships collecting reinforcement.