White Scars ROW speculations?

[stang]

So I've been slowly fiddling with Raven Guard.
However in prepping for February, I'm also ambitiously trying to see what I can do for White Scars.

We all know special units will not be released with only 2 ROW for the WS, DA and BA. 

BUT what do you guys think they will be?

 

A fluff driven hit-and-run? More FA slots? Will we see a "xxx unit becomes troops" deal? 

This is possible given that the Scars love jetbikes (and bikes) in the fluff and books.

 

If so, which would you guys think will have a higher percentage chance - outriders or jetbikes? 

Lastly, if this does happen, would we finally see lists without the obligatory 10 tact+Rhino set up?
After all, 3 Jetbikes are cheaper...

Looking forward to your educated (non wish-listing) input!

[helterskelter]

It will be pure mounted I reckon. So as well as jet bikes being made a troop option, tacticals will have to take a rhino or drop pod. Also think there will be a restriction on heavy support, either just one or you can only take, fast type, flyer type or heavy support squads in rhinos.

Or something to that effect anyway. Maybe an army wide outflank available but obviously you have to have a unit on the table to begin with

[Marshal Rohr]

It will be the option to play as purely mounted, which will be inherently limiting because even though outriders do kick some :cuss with their BP and CCW combo, they get pricey, and Sky Hunters are also pricey. I'm interested in their Legion rules because I want base an army off the guys fighting in the Palace and not harassing Horus' flanks.

[depthcharge12]

Maybe on a 3+ they can do guitar solos off the top of their rhino like the Khan did?

[stang]

outriders do kick some with their BP and CCW combo, they get pricey, and Sky Hunters are also pricey.

See this is why I'm hesitant about them being troops. Unless FW intends for them to be Uber Glass-hammer-y. Like the old-old wych cult list.

That being said, I'm still figuring out which is the safer bike type to make in anticipation for troop fillers.

Maybe on a 3+ they can do guitar solos off the top of their rhino like the Khan did?

Well, they were the Slaaneshi converts in the Dornian Heresy weren't they?

[Frater Cornelius]

Outriders as mandatory troops. Every infantry that isn't a Bike, Jetbike or Jump Pack must be mounted in a transport. No Dreadnoughts / No more Dreadnoughts than infantry and they must be mounted in transports of sorts. The bonus will probably be movement-related like getting additional movement distance, better outflanking, hit and run and things like that.

[grand_master85]

Id rather have Jetbikes as Troops, as opposed to Outrider. If only to have a bit of variation from the typical WS force in 40k. That, and I've got 13 Jetbikes with plans to get another 6 for Christmas lol.

 

I'd like to see an all mounted force, with compulsory troops Jetbikes, all infantry mounted in vehicles and only Fast tanks in Heavy Support as opposed to 1 Heavy Support

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'm guessing Hit and Run is either going to be either integral to the Legion as a Legion rule, or incorporated as the Khan's Sire of the White Scars rule. Due to the power of the rule, either limited to charge only or to characters only. That way, it places some tactics on placement to get the charge and wheel away or to try and keep the character alive. If it's from the Khan, then it's flat out Hit and Run. Perhaps limited to non Terminator models.

 

Outriders and Jetbikes could become troops with the Support Unit special rule.

 

Limited Dreadnoughts (perhaps all Talons are limited to 1, to encourage Drop Podding). For vehicles; I think it would be pretty awesome to see some form of Drop Pod assault for things like Rhino's. Perhaps Rhino's count towards what units may deploy via Drop Pod Assault. Outflank, Scout, Acute Sense, Skilled Riders for the relevant units as per necessary. Apothecaries may take Jetbikes or Space Marine bikes, but must be assigned to Command Squads similarly equipped, Sky Hunters or Outriders respectively. I don't think Land Raiders would get benefits, but not penalties; having said that, but Scouting Achilles are pretty awesome, especially when they don't need a Proteus taking up 200pts (although the TL Lascannons can be useful with PotMS). Perhaps Flyers gain the Agile special rule unless they already have it.

 

So;

 

Effects;

Legion Outrider Squad and Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadrons may be taken as Troops in addition to Fast Attack in a detachment using this Rite of War, although if taken as Troops, they gain the Support Units special rule. Either squad taken as a Fast Attack selection gain the Veteran Tactics special rule. Apothecarion Detachments may elect to take a Space Marine Bike with twin-linked bolters or a Legion Scimitar pattern Jetbike with heavy bolter, and may be attached to Legion Outrider Squads or Jetbike Skyhunter Squadrons in addition to their normal options. However, to be attached to a squad from the options, they must share the same unit type - for this purpose "Character" is ignored. 

All Flyers (excluding non-Super Heavy Flyers) and Fast Skimmers have the Agile special rule (+1 to any Cover Save, according to Imperial Armour; Aeronautica) if they do not have it already. Those with Agile already gain the Vector Dancer special rule.

Any vehicle with the Transport type gains the Outflank special rule, provided that it begins the game with carrying a unit. Any model with the Scout special rule already gain Acute Senses.

Terminator Armour and Cataphractii Pattern Terminator Armour gain the Deep Strike special

 

Limitations

No Dreadnought Talon of any variant may include more than a single model (excluding Dedicated Transports). No allied Fortification detachments may be taken in an army with a detachment running this Rite of War. Any infantry unit with the option to take a Dedicated Transport must do so, and must start the game embarked within. Detachments using this Rite of War must take a Librarian with Mastery Level 2 and using the Divination discipline as a second Compulsory HQ choice. Any vehicle without the Fast or Scout special rule must start the game in reserve. 

 

Includes a unit tax in the form of a pair of 2x Rhinos and an 115pt Librarian. They're not so much "limitations" in that they're actually useful units, (seriously; who wants to play a rite of war where they're forced to just burn points?, and slower units must start in reserve.

 

Basically means that you've got your fast units in the form of jetbikers, outriders, land speeders, javelins and Sicarans catch up with the enemy, with the odd Dreadnought/Dreadclaw dropping in to give them some greater hitting power, while the rest come in from reserve.

 

And before people say it's too strong, there's no Typhon until Turn 2 earliest, and is limited to 24", and Grav Cannons cannot fire until Turn 3 unless brought down in a Kharybdis/Dreadclaw.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking of a white scares traitor force when they come out, and I do love jetbikes, but having to pay £74 for each compulsory troops unit.....  it would make white scares ridiculously expensive to get, though I admit I'm leaning towards going for an ordbital assault scars force if I do do it.

[stang]

 

Outriders and Jetbikes could become troops with the Support Unit special rule.

 

So hey Hesh,

1) given your preference for minimum 10 man tacts,

2) and assuming your prediction (or even it being plain troops, not support),

 

would there be any unit of the 3 (Outriders, Skyhunters, Rhino Marines) you would lean to? 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Rhino Marines.

 

Outriders as troops gives you scoring accurate special weapons and frees up the fast attack units. Plasma Guns are still cheaper (5 for 175 compared to 165 for 3 Twin Linked ones) in special weapon squads, but they need a Rhino Transport to not get nixed and can't move 12+rapid fire and Gets hot is less of a problem, so it's a 1:1 split. Less damage, but more resilient (ish - a 3+ Jink is decent). I've never really been a fan of Jetbikes as it is (shooting is relatively desultory, and their close combat outside of bringing meltabombs is... yeah. Unless they get given Graviton Guns/Cannons inside that big ass nose, they'll stay as a low level unit. 

 

Something I've come up against recently are people "spamming" minimum size squads of Jetbikers with Meltabombs. At 150pts, they're not a massive investment, which spend as much time loitering out of sight or soaking up extraneous firepower before slamming forwards turn 5/6 in effort to steal objectives, turbo boosting if necessary, in an effort to simply deny the enemies objectives. I've lost several games recently that I'd thought I'd squared away something like 7 points to 4 to lose 4 to 1 thanks to a last turn zubzub. 

 

One of my favourite ideas for a Rite of War would be for a legion to "smash and grab" securing objectives, and on random game length missions have the ability to force the game to end at the end of turn 5 rather than rolling, or have the option of stalling and force the game to end on turn 6. Would be stupidly good though!

[PastelAvenger]

If FW care at all about Scars fluff they won't be able to take Dreadnoughts of any type, I doubt this will happen though.

[Slips]

If FW care at all about Scars fluff they won't be able to take Dreadnoughts of any type, I doubt this will happen though.

Not really.

 

Terran White Scars would have used Dreads just like any other.

 

Its the integration of the Chogorian Culture and the ideology of 'Freedom Above All Else' (more or less) which makes them reticent to use Dreadnoughts since you're trapping the Warrior Spirit within.

 

And even then, that might be more of a 40k Thing than 30k. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

If FW care at all about Scars fluff they won't be able to take Dreadnoughts of any type, I doubt this will happen though.

Not really.

 

Terran White Scars would have used Dreads just like any other.

 

Its the integration of the Chogorian Culture and the ideology of 'Freedom Above All Else' (more or less) which makes them reticent to use Dreadnoughts since you're trapping the Warrior Spirit within.

 

And even then, that might be more of a 40k Thing than 30k. 

 

and suddenly I have anohter thread for the my Traitor Khan's reasoning for siding with the Warmaster.

[depthcharge12]

I like that ending early idea, it's like what some legions have, but in reverse. That's something like I had with first legion rules with less astartes in combat, then they get a bonus.

[Slips]

 

 

If FW care at all about Scars fluff they won't be able to take Dreadnoughts of any type, I doubt this will happen though.

Not really.

 

Terran White Scars would have used Dreads just like any other.

 

Its the integration of the Chogorian Culture and the ideology of 'Freedom Above All Else' (more or less) which makes them reticent to use Dreadnoughts since you're trapping the Warrior Spirit within.

 

And even then, that might be more of a 40k Thing than 30k. 

 

and suddenly I have anohter thread for the my Traitor Khan's reasoning for siding with the Warmaster.

 

Minor Scars Spoilers:

 

 

 

Its one of the reasons why  there were Traitor Elements in the WS / How the lodges were able to take hold.

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

The White Scars (and it would've worked for the Ravens had most of them not died at Gate 42) need a mechanic similar to the World Eaters. You can choose a Chogoran or Terran set of rules, the Chogoran focuses on speed and ferocity with unit limitations and the Terran is more ubiquitous and allows for units not normal considered to for the White Scar themes.

[stang]

I too, agree on jet bikes being troops. This is purely from the perspective on how iconic they are to the era.
 

Rhino Marines.

 

Outriders as troops gives you scoring accurate special weapons and frees up the fast attack units. Plasma Guns are still cheaper (5 for 175 compared to 165 for 3 Twin Linked ones) in special weapon squads, but they need a Rhino Transport to not get nixed and can't move 12+rapid fire and Gets hot is less of a problem, so it's a 1:1 split. Less damage, but more resilient (ish - a 3+ Jink is decent). I've never really been a fan of Jetbikes as it is (shooting is relatively desultory, and their close combat outside of bringing meltabombs is... yeah. Unless they get given Graviton Guns/Cannons inside that big ass nose, they'll stay as a low level unit. 

 

Something I've come up against recently are people "spamming" minimum size squads of Jetbikers with Meltabombs. At 150pts, they're not a massive investment, which spend as much time loitering out of sight or soaking up extraneous firepower before slamming forwards turn 5/6 in effort to steal objectives, turbo boosting if necessary, in an effort to simply deny the enemies objectives. I've lost several games recently that I'd thought I'd squared away something like 7 points to 4 to lose 4 to 1 thanks to a last turn zubzub. 

 

So you're saying a "1:1 split" between outriders and rhino marines?
As it is, troops now are all about "zubzub" -ing to objectives (unless you're a direct contributor like terror squads because of your cost)

Furthermore, 3 outriders/jetbikes leave a smaller footprint than 10 marines and a Rhino.

I would have thought a combination of -

• the cheapest,
• most mobile and,
• most durable

with damage output a secondary bonus.

Hence 2 x 3 outriders/jetbikes - Less points, faster moment to secure objectives, and less of a target to get there.

Maybe?

 

 

If FW care at all about Scars fluff they won't be able to take Dreadnoughts of any type, I doubt this will happen though.

Not really.

 

Terran White Scars would have used Dreads just like any other.

 

Its the integration of the Chogorian Culture and the ideology of 'Freedom Above All Else' (more or less) which makes them reticent to use Dreadnoughts since you're trapping the Warrior Spirit within.

 

And even then, that might be more of a 40k Thing than 30k. 

 

In "Scars" when one of the main characters- Shiban awakens after battle, Ilya Ravillion comments on how his wounds were grave enough to warrant dreadnought internment but that it was "frowned upon" by his legion.

So I suppose the thinking was already present in 30k.