augustmanifesto Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I know every so often plot flaws, impossibilities or just annoying problems with the 30k/40k universe come up. But recently something occurred to me about why it is so strange nobody saw the Horus Heresy coming: Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose? It is commonly mentioned that warp-travel can result in ships translating back into real space in very different times and spaces than their intended destination. Given (1) the massive number of warp-transiting ships in the Imperium (2) over the (at least) 10,000 years following the Horus Heresy, is it true that the chances are very high that at least one ship from the future would have translated back into the year 29,999? What am I missing here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operative Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 From my understand the warp is just a different dimension that is exploited to travel to places faster as it can be quickly navigated. I haven't heard of any ships travelling back in time, although there certainly are ships travelling relatively far forward in time (usually put down to getting lost in the warp). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The odds of the ship warp translating into the future (mishap )and back into the past (another mishap) is nigh impossible, as both occurences are extremely rare and not common place. They usually get stuck in that time period and cannot go back. Example : Captain Lysander Biggest inconsistency is Clan Raukhan supplement ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Goat Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think such a warning would have been inconceivable, nobody would believe the Emperors favourite son would turn on the Imperium. That's part of the tragedy. I mean, even during the several years of the heresy, those legions out on the fringes take a long time to fully believe the treachery and only once they have discovered it first hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The Chaos Gods have a lot of influence over the Warp. It seems to me that given that this sort of thing is incredibly unlikely, it wouldn't take a lot for the Ruinous Powers to make sure that if it was about to happen, it doesn't happen instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 He means a ship that's just toodling about after the heresy accidentally bouncing back to pre-heresy times. Just a single mishap. I haven't read example where a ship goes back in time, only degrees of going forward. HOWEVER, I do remember one little blurb in a BRB once that said some ships do go back in time. Sooo...it never happened because Chaos said so, or it happened but was suppressed because Eldar or the Emperor said so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well, I do remember some fluff saying that there were instances of ships arriving before the battle they were supposed to fight in even started or long after the battlehas concluded. But it has been mentioned in one place and probably secretly scrapped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 First I would say that the time translation (that is super rare, but possible) isn't that significant. Basically backwards is only a year or two at most. Second I would say that if someone came out of the warp and started saying that, everyone would think that the gellar field must have failed and that the crew that is saying it lost their sanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Actually ... there is a short story where a sister of silence wents back in time, and tries to warn the other sisters that the heresy would happen ... well ... they executed her because she spoke and didn't trust her if i remember it right >.> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 From my understand the warp is just a different dimension that is exploited to travel to places faster as it can be quickly navigated. I haven't heard of any ships travelling back in time, although there certainly are ships travelling relatively far forward in time (usually put down to getting lost in the warp).Ahriman novels. Ahriman actually encounters an Inquisition ship carrying a future version of one of his then-current comrades as a prisoner while the present version is fighting with him side-by-side. The prisoner's gene-seed is examined by the Inquisition and his Chapter is purged. The purge of his Chapter with no apparent reason causes the not-yet-prisoner to begin walking the path of a Renegade Astartes that will see him become a prisoner of the Inquisition who will be used to condemn his Chapter when it hasn't done anything wrong. Yeah, time becomes real relative in that second book. But just because time travel can happen, doesn't mean it will. So it isn't an inconsistency so much as an improbability, or unexplored plot point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Didn't Codex Assassins mention a clade which specialised in preventing time-distortion events that would be the specific result of warp traveling back in time? The possibily most likely exists, for sure, but as others have pointed out, not only were the chaos gods pretty involved in the going ons of humanity at that point, anyone who DID come back would have been hunted with prejudice... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 There's a story with Tallarn Desert Raiders and timey wimey wibbly wobbly stuff. Unfortunately going into detail would spoil the story. Suffice to say stuff can go back in time when the warp is involved. Now, the likelihood of a ship going back before the heresy to sometime in the two-hundred years the Great Crusade was occurring is slim. Very slim. Two hundred years is a stupendously small window when you compare it to the entirety of history. Now, bear in mind if they arrive before then (up to a few thousand years before), then they'll either die from the rampant warp storms across the galaxy or the myriad of other perils (like aliens or human isolationists) will get them (or be stranded). If they arrive after that two hundred year window, then the point is moot (the same applies the farther back in history they go). So, to put it simply: Two century window + highly unlikely occurrence = Probably didn't happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Your fleet goes through the warp after centuries fighting the great crusade, then suddenly you find yourself in a system where a giant inept totalitarian government (which claims to follow the emperor) opens fire on you for no reason. When you interrogate them they call you traitors, daemon worshipers, and that there are chaos gods motivating your every move. Occam's razor- we've gone really far off course and it's our duty to bring this false Imperium into compliance. Everyone is totally unwarae that you are fighting against your own. This was the fluff for my Grand Battalion when I started my legion. I love the warp time travel stuff. As a bonus it helps explain why a Legion might fight against a 40k army :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose? The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy? "Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Actually ... there is a short story where a sister of silence wents back in time, and tries to warn the other sisters that the heresy would happen ... well ... they executed her because she spoke and didn't trust her if i remember it right >.> That audio drama explaining it was fantastic. The kicker right at the end... hooo boy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Lion. El. Johnson. So bad. Black Library need better editors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 You spelled writers wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Nah, the editors are the real problem. Different writers will write differently. Continuity and consistency across 30+ books by a dozen or so writers is the editors responsibilty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebulon Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy? "Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..." Hmmm... That could make for a suitably grim story. "What can I do to help you, Sir? Sir?! OH DEAR THRONE....?!?!" *sound of whirring chain-axe rending flesh* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 There is an arm of the Inquisition devoted to protecting the timeline according to (IIRC) the Inquisition codex. I think that perhaps the Emperor and Chaos "gods" influence keeps others from influencing that momentous period. I think the abilities of Space Marines and Primarchs are the most inconsistent. This of course (and understandably) varies from author to author. I changed my mind. The ability for Chaos to control the warp is most confusing. They can becalm the Entire Death Guard Legion or make the 7 legion Retribution fleet slice their way rapidly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose? The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy? "Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..." Maybe you could refresh my memory Legatus. But don't most know some kind of reason for the Emperor being enshrined on the Golden Throne and that it was Horus who caused it? Or do most simply believe it was him like "ascending"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose? The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy? "Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..." Maybe you could refresh my memory Legatus. But don't most know some kind of reason for the Emperor being enshrined on the Golden Throne and that it was Horus who caused it? Or do most simply believe it was him like "ascending"? That depends on multiple circumstances. For example, most Space Marines have a general knowledge of the Heresy and who participated. But then you get Chapters like the Dark Angels who brainwash the average Marine into not even being aware of Traitor Astartes until he is fighting them and the memories come flooding back. And that's your "average" hive-level citizen. They're vaguely aware, but they think of it as a creation myth, not a historical fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4227999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 My biggest issue is that the primarchs are shown to not be known by many of the high leaders of their legions. Captain Garo (I think... the 8th co captain of mortarion) seems to have never really had any actual interaction with his primarch even though he is the 8th or 9th ranking officer in that legion. It makes no sense that the primarch only has interaction with three or four people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4228009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 And yet on the one hand, it does. Typically the Legions are spread out across dozens of Expedition Fleets. So even if they have a triannual Legion reunion, not everyone is going to get facetime with the big cheese. And in the case of Mortarion, it becomes even more pronounced because of how prejudiced he was against Terran officers like Garro. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4228010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Yep. And it would/should've been awesome. I want to do a little of this in the Black Legion series, when they start to get into the Imperium itself. This is a setting where battlefleets can arrive seven years too late to defend the planets they were trying to reinforce, because they literally have to sail through the underworld to get there. That... that's rad. And in the Eye of Terror, Chaos Marines and daemons may very well cross paths with alternate versions of themselves, or future versions of themselves, or creatures that just seem to be alternate versions of themselves, and so on. But Legatus has a very strong point, here. This is also a setting where the Emperor is worshipped in a million ways on a million worlds - as long as they pay their tithes to the Adeptus Terra and venerate the Emperor in some form or another (and, hey, look how many variations of "God" we have on one planet, in a tiny span of historical time), then they get to live. Add that to the fact that the Heresy is essentially forbidden knowledge to most of the galactic population (who themselves only know about 1% of the rulebooks' information) and there's not much they'd know to say, or understand even if they could frame their thoughts about it. I love this stuff, in moderation. It's Rogue Trader-tastic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316170-biggest-inconsistency-in-the-horus-heresy/#findComment-4228013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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