Biggest Inconsistency in the Horus Heresy?

[Viridia]

The differing abilities of Primarchs is one. In Know No Fear, Abnett shows us Guilliman going from spending several hours in the void of space, bareheaded and going around crushing Word Bearers as if it was a recreation of Kung Pow! Then in Unremembered Empire, we have him being ambushed by the Alpha Legion in his personal chambers trying very much to avoid getting shot in the head by a bolt. Compare this to Betrayer by A D-B above, and we have Lorgar taking a plasma blastgun to the face. (Granted, this one can be explained by the foulest of warpmagicks)

 

Another one is how MkIV armour went from being really rare in Mechanicum to the point where the Imperial Fists sent Sigismund, Camba-Diaz and some companies to retrieve hundreds of suits, boltguns and munitions. Now it seems that everyone and their neophyte has a MkIV suit, and Umbra/Umbra Ferrox bolters have gone the way of the Thunder Warriors.

 

One more is the story of Fallen Angels. In that, the Lion knows Horus is a traitor, even handing over siege weapons to Perturabo in exchange for support later on. Despite that, he then buggers off to the far side of the galaxy to let the Night Lords come over and start baiting him into a fight. Since it seems he didn't have any orders to head for Thramas, why didn't the Lion just lead the Angels to Terra or Caliban?

[augustmanifesto]

 

Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose?

 

 

The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy?

 

"Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..."

That there was a massive civil war and the Astartes turned on each other.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose?

 

The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy?

 

"Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..."

That there was a massive civil war and the Astartes turned on each other.

Legs is right. No one knows about the heresy, space marines aren't allowed on Terra, and the most brutal redaction of history IN history wiped out knowledge about the Heresy.

[Petitioner's City]

No one is mentioning the great & tragic time travel in Ravenor! 

[Black_out]

I'm of the opinion that the inconsistencies are actually important to the lore. Generally we get stories told from many different points of view from many different people, all with different levels of knowledge about the imperium itself.

 

So while some believe wholeheartedly that they know THE truth, it's more likely that it's only THEIR truth and we all know there can be several different versions of the same story based on who's telling it.

 

Let's not forget there's also been 10,000 years of conquest and war too. Just look at human history for example. We can't accurately depict occurrences from 2,000 years of our history, but the Imperium is supposed to know everything from over a period 5x longer than that? I don't care how technologically advanced you are, it's impossible. Especially given the enormous scale we're dealing with.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Kaldor Draigo

[Skalpynock]

 We can't accurately depict occurrences from 2,000 years of our history, but the Imperium is supposed to know everything from over a period 5x longer than that? I don't care how technologically advanced you are, it's impossible. Especially given the enormous scale we're dealing with.

To which we should add dozens of billions of incompetant clerks, archivists, and paper-pushers too busy with current matters to care about a snippet of ancient history. Most of the accurate stuff is probably lost at the bottom of a hive-sized pile of paper of Terra.

[Arkangilos]

Another one is how MkIV armour went from being really rare in Mechanicum to the point where the Imperial Fists sent Sigismund, Camba-Diaz and some companies to retrieve hundreds of suits, boltguns and munitions. Now it seems that everyone and their neophyte has a MkIV suit, and Umbra/Umbra Ferrox bolters have gone the way of the Thunder Warriors.

 

I thought it was Mk VI that was super rare and that the Imperial Fists fought over.

[Nuttyer1st]

 

Another one is how MkIV armour went from being really rare in Mechanicum to the point where the Imperial Fists sent Sigismund, Camba-Diaz and some companies to retrieve hundreds of suits, boltguns and munitions. Now it seems that everyone and their neophyte has a MkIV suit, and Umbra/Umbra Ferrox bolters have gone the way of the Thunder Warriors.

 

I thought it was Mk VI that was super rare and that the Imperial Fists fought over.

 

 

I think a later republishing of Mechanicum changed it from Mark IV to Mark VI, whcih makes more sense

[Pariah Mk.231]

From my understand the warp is just a different dimension that is exploited to travel to places faster as it can be quickly navigated. I haven't heard of any ships travelling back in time, although there certainly are ships travelling relatively far forward in time (usually put down to getting lost in the warp).

 

Ork Warlord Grizgutz has a warp mishap and travels back to shortly before he leaves. He then proceeds to hunt down his duplicate to get spare copy of his favourite gun.

 

Kind of surprised nobody mentioned it yet.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

Another one is how MkIV armour went from being really rare in Mechanicum to the point where the Imperial Fists sent Sigismund, Camba-Diaz and some companies to retrieve hundreds of suits, boltguns and munitions. Now it seems that everyone and their neophyte has a MkIV suit, and Umbra/Umbra Ferrox bolters have gone the way of the Thunder Warriors.

I thought it was Mk VI that was super rare and that the Imperial Fists fought over.

I think a later republishing of Mechanicum changed it from Mark IV to Mark VI, whcih makes more sense

Well I mean, the MK VI thing where the imperial fists fought to retrieve it has been around since tat least Second Edition I believe.

[augustmanifesto]

Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose?

The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy?

"Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..."

That there was a massive civil war and the Astartes turned on each other.

Legs is right. No one knows about the heresy, space marines aren't allowed on Terra, and the most brutal redaction of history IN history wiped out knowledge about the Heresy.

Disagree. First, is it canon that the fact of the Horus Heresy is censored? I know details involving specific Legions is censored, but that the event itself happened? How do people explain Chaos Space marines, then? Doesn't cause any questions?

Even if that is Imperial policy (it might be, I just can't recall ever reading that), then If you think a political power can completely erase knowledge that a galaxy-wide civil war happened, costing billions upon billions of lives and transforming everyone's lives forever, then I think we have very different ideas about politics, knowledge, and social reality. That seems patently impossible.

Even if so, such a enormous censorship campaign would surely take centuries if not millennial to execute to absolute effect, leaving the problem stated at the outside intact, just for a short amount of time, IMO.

[Black_out]

10,000 years isn't enough time for things to be censured, erased, or otherwise forgotten?

[Arkangilos]

Wouldn't have warp-translation problems almost certainly have sent a ship from the future, after the Heresy had taken place, into the past before the Horus Heresy occurred, allowing the crew to warn whomever they encountered if they so chose?

The thing is, if some random trader/transport ship from M32+ jumped back and landed in the midst of the glorious great crusade, what would that ship's crew know about the heresy?

"Whoa, how amazing to first hand watch the Space Marine Legions expand the Imperium... hang on, half of these Legions I don't recall ever reading about..."

That there was a massive civil war and the Astartes turned on each other.

Legs is right. No one knows about the heresy, space marines aren't allowed on Terra, and the most brutal redaction of history IN history wiped out knowledge about the Heresy.

Disagree. First, is it canon that the fact of the Horus Heresy is censored? I know details involving specific Legions is censored, but that the event itself happened? How do people explain Chaos Space marines, then? Doesn't cause any questions?

Even if that is Imperial policy (it might be, I just can't recall ever reading that), then If you think a political power can completely erase knowledge that a galaxy-wide civil war happened, costing billions upon billions of lives and transforming everyone's lives forever, then I think we have very different ideas about politics, knowledge, and social reality. That seems patently impossible.

Even if so, such a enormous censorship campaign would surely take centuries if not millennial to execute to absolute effect, leaving the problem stated at the outside intact, just for a short amount of time, IMO.

Censorship isn't as hard as people think it is when you cast aside modern morals.

The Horus Heresy would have, at most, been a like how the world sees the war between the gods and the Titans, or a war between Satan and God.

So it would be known about in a sense, but most names to most people wouldn't be known, and it probably would not have been called the Horus Heresy.

Most people also don't encounter chaos space marines, and many that do never live remember the tail.

One guy met one, but had no idea. A dark angel came in, told everyone to erase his name from history, and and executed him. (It's in an Audio Drama).

There was also a case in Soul Hunter where a captain of a ship saw a space marine strike cruiser and had no idea what was going on when it turned out to be chaos.

It would be easy to explain chaos space marines away as just evil creatures that prey on the imperium. You don't have to say they are traitors.

[Gaz Taylor]

Disagree. First, is it canon that the fact of the Horus Heresy is censored? I know details involving specific Legions is censored, but that the event itself happened? How do people explain Chaos Space marines, then? Doesn't cause any questions?

Yes it's canon the Heresy was censored. For the majority of the Imperium, they are only dimly aware about the Adeptus Astartes and to be honest the rest of the Imperium. The key thing to remember about 40K is it's a Dark Science Fantasy setting with majority of the people living in the setting not knowing (or caring) about anything outside their pitiful lives. This is often lost for us as the average reader of the background will not be focusing upon this with what they are reading and will often have all that background stored in their head.

Even if that is Imperial policy (it might be, I just can't recall ever reading that), then If you think a political power can completely erase knowledge that a galaxy-wide civil war happened, costing billions upon billions of lives and transforming everyone's lives forever, then I think we have very different ideas about politics, knowledge, and social reality. That seems patently impossible.

It's important to remember here that this galaxy wide civil war happened 10,000 years ago and history is often written by the victors. Add to the mix that contact between the planets in the Imperium is sporadic at best (communication by the warp isn't as simple as a phone call) and that in the aftermath of the Heresy, the Ecclesiarchy would have gone out into the Galaxy and reducated everybody to worship the Emperor, and its easy to see why people would have very little knowledge of what happened.

Even if so, such a enormous censorship campaign would surely take centuries if not millennial to execute to absolute effect, leaving the problem stated at the outside intact, just for a short amount of time, IMO.

It would of, but the agents of the Imperium would destroy entire star systems if it meant keeping things a secret about the Heresy and things like that get people to keep quiet. After a millenia or two, it's just a rumour or story nobody talks about.

[Ishagu]

After 10000 years you won't need censorship.

It will pass into myth.

 

People would be aware of it, but the specifics would be lost to most.

[Spinsanity]

Censorship isn't as hard as people think it is when you cast aside modern morals.

 

The Horus Heresy would have, at most, been a like how the world sees the war between the gods and the Titans, or a war between Satan and God.

 

So it would be known about in a sense, but most names to most people wouldn't be known, and it probably would not have been called the Horus Heresy.

 

Most people also don't encounter chaos space marines, and many that do never live remember the tail.

 

One guy met one, but had no idea. A dark angel came in, told everyone to erase his name from history, and and executed him. (It's in an Audio Drama).

 

There was also a case in Soul Hunter where a captain of a ship saw a space marine strike cruiser and had no idea what was going on when it turned out to be chaos.

 

It would be easy to explain chaos space marines away as just evil creatures that prey on the imperium. You don't have to say they are traitors.

Another fine example is from the Black Dragons 'Space Marine Battles' novel Death of Antagonis.

In which a bunch of Chaos Space Marines are seen as saviors by the local populace just because they wear shiny golden armour...

 

[Brofist]

That brings up an interesting point. People would probably inherently distrust astartes. You can't tell the Chaos ones apart from the Loyalist ones and very few have any idea chaos even exists. Ontop of this loyalists sometimes fight each other. I imagine people would be perceptive enough to connect seeing a space marine or hearing rumor of one with indiscriminate trouble in the future.

[Arkangilos]

Well that's one reason space marines *are* dreaded. What little is known about them all comes into the "Angels of Death" myth that they embody, and so any time one is seen, people know it means death is there.

 

But like had been said, most people have not seen and will not see one.

[Kol Saresk]

It also helps that they are regarded as the harbingers of death in 40K. Basically, if you see an Astartes, your life expectancy just entered some dangerous levels, even if you're the ally. That's why a Chapter like the Salamanders who actively go out of their way to avoid civilian casualties and even protect the civilians are so rare. It just doesn't translate in the novels because for some reason everyone wants their Angel of Death to be a Knight in Shining Armor so the books get populated with them.

[Legatus]

Regarding public knowledge of the Horus Heresy, this is how it was described in 2nd Edition. I am not sure it was described in as much detail in a later source.

 

On records from that era:

 

"Over one hundred centuries ago the Great and Beneficient Emperor of Mankind ascended to the Golden Throne of Earth. Not even the ancient records of the Historitors of the Adeptus Administratum tell how the Emperor came to rule over the Imperium. Legends hint darkly at the terrible wars of the Horus Heresy, of the battles that raged across the galaxy, and of the final victory of the Emperor over the Daemon Horus and the forces of Chaos. The truth lies buried under millennia of superstition, submerged beneath centuries of myth, and perhaps locked behind adamantine doors sealed with ancient runes of power. The only man who might remember those far-off days is the Emperor, and none can guess what thoughts revolve inside his carrion skull."

- 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, p. 10

 

On knowledge of Daemons:

 

"Such is the high level of secrecy concerning the existence of daemons that planets cleansed by the Grey Knights are usually scoured to remove all traces of human life. This is known as the Exterminatus. Even military units of the Imperial Guard that have been seconded by the Inquisition to help fight daemons are subject to this scouring. Their exposure is considered to comprise a significant risk which merits their destruction. The cost in human life is high, but the threat to all humanity is great and the cost must be reckoned in terms of racial survival.

The Exterminatus is usually waived in the case of non-Grey Knight Space Marines drafted in to help the Ordo. In fact it is very rare for the Ordo to request aid from Space Marines in this way, as Space Marines are extremely valuable troops whose fighting qualities are sorely needed in other theatres. If ordinary Space Marines are employed on behalf of the Ordo, survivors are subject to a deep hypnotic treatment designed to eradicate their recent memories.

The process is not absolutely infallible. Sometimes a Space Marine's experiences will have driven him beyond the point of sanity, in which case death is the most merciful option. In most cases, however, this so-called mind scrubbing is totally effective, and its subject can return to his Chapter freed from the memories of any horrors he might have witnessed."

- 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, p. 32

 

 

The latter censorship of any knowledge about Daemons and Chaos is often ignored, not just in newer material (see for example the story of the "Space Marine" game), but also in older (the Space Wolves were apparently not mind wiped after the First War for Armageddon). However, extermination of human witnesses and mind-scrubbing of Space Marines was still described in the 5th Edition Codex Grey Knights (though here described as for the purpose of erasing knowledge of the existence of the Grey Knights, not daemons), so it is not "outdated" lore.

 

You would almost expect a random human character from a 40K novel who was confronted by a daemon to yell "watch out, it's a Bloodletter of Khorne", but that would be completely against the lore of the setting. A normal human would have absolutely no clue what he would be facing. We as players are of course given all of this information, but unfortunately GW is not allways doing a good job of pointing out just how little of that army list information is available to the average human (or even higher ranked personell with clearances). It's not as if an imperial citicen could just go on the imper-net and check out a database of nasty aliens or officially listed Space Marine Chapters.

 

The first cited passage, when refering to "myths and legends" told about the Heresy probably means that such tales are told amongst those very rare individuals who are more "in the know" about such classified information (especially since it mentions Chaos and "Daemon Horus"). Such tales are probably not spread amongst the normal population.

[Plasmablasts]

If the =][= does declare Exterminatus against any planet subject to a daemonic incursion, why hasn't some Chaos demogogue sent out his cultists to every major Imperial planet, made them summon a few Nurglings and then sat back to watch the =][= wipeout most of the Imperial infrastructure?

 

I think the knowledge or ignorance of Daemons and Chaos is one of the most inconsistently handled themes in the lore. Codex: Grey Knights supports Legatus' quote above about the scouring of Imperial forces confronted by Daemons. BL fiction on the other hand has numerous examples of IG forces encountering Daemons and then being allowed to continue on their campaign. (See the Gaunt's Ghosts series for examples.)

 

Also, why would the GK be so ruthless to keep their existence a secret if not to thereby conceal the existence of Daemons? It can't be to conceal their existence from the Enemy, unless Daemons are affected by amnesia every time they are banished back to the warp...

 

Finally, what about the population of Cadia, dedicated to barring the exit from the Eye of Terror? What do they grow up believing?

[Leif Bearclaw]

I think the knowledge or ignorance of Daemons and Chaos is one of the most inconsistently handled themes in the lore. Codex: Grey Knights supports Legatus' quote above about the scouring of Imperial forces confronted by Daemons. BL fiction on the other hand has numerous examples of IG forces encountering Daemons and then being allowed to continue on their campaign. (See the Gaunt's Ghosts series for examples.)

 

Or just already knowing about Daemons. A great example of this paradox is in the novel Pandorax. The Catachan garrison knows enough about Daemons to know what they are, and even recognise a Bloodthirster (though they know it by a different name). Yet they're still mind wiped after the Campaign, apparently because they interacted with Draigo and his GKs. The take home message here really seems to be 'Knowledge of Chaos is fine, but knowing about the guys whose job it is to protect you from this stuff? Verboten.'.

 

That said, bringing back the 'mind wiping' thing for 5th ed GKs (as it had previously been abandoned for many years, to the point where I only encountered it in the ancient Inquisition War novels) was a terrible idea. It just raises more issues and inconsistencies and opens less doors for interesting stories. Better left buried imo.

[Ishagu]

A lot of GK fluff has been toned down so I wouldn't look at the older lore as gospel.

[Slips]

I'd like to know why were discussing GKs in a Horus Heresy topic :p

 

(when it doesnt deal with the Conspiracy Theory that Omegon = Janus...look it up. it was a pretty long thread >_>)