Iron Hands Questions (formerly Iron Hands and Mk IV)

[Big Bad Squig]

As the topic title may suggest, I'm about to pick up a Betrayal at Calth box and am slightly torn between which legion the models will end up being.  Note that I am splitting it, and, as such will be getting the Word Bearers side of the force.  My question, therefore, is this:  how much Mk IV armour would be in use in the time approaching the Drop Site Massacre?  I would prefer to use Mk III (in an ideal world) as I think it fits more with the fluff, but would marines in Mk IV be an acceptable start for a Clan Morraghul army?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Calas Typhon]

There would be an amount of MKIV in the Legion, however the MKIII plate would have been preferable for the bulk of the Legion due to their way of warfare and use of conversion. MKIII was glorious for them due to the use of Bionics. 

 

That does not mean that there was not an amount in the Legion. The X legion and Ferrus were held as one of the greatest in the Imperium and would have had a supply of them like the others if asked for. The only problem is that they were somewhat occupied out of the reaches since the return of the Emperor to Terra and the crowning of Horus as Warmaster, therefore only through supply would they have gained the pattern.

[Father Mehman]

Mk III is iconic for a few Legions. That's all well and good but we've (most of us, at least) ordered all this Mk IV. What do we do with it? Well, we could either build another Legion or use it for our current/planned one.

I get what you're asking Squig because I had the same thought about my own Legion. Horus gave the Death Guard some new marks and a bit of it wound up in my Company was what I came up with. That doesn't mean I can't add Mk II or III down the line when I get some funds.

To answer your question: Yes. Start off with Mk IV and then throw in some Mk III and Mk II down the line. I know that's not very fluffy but I think Brother Cthonia nailed it pretty well .

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

As Cthonia said, the X^th's MO in terms of warfare made Mk III by far the most widespread pattern of armour within the Legion. However, they did have extremely close ties with the Mechanicum, and Horus also hoped they'd align themselves with his forces when the civil war began, so they would have had as much access to Mk IV as any other Legion.

 

The question is, in what situation would they use Mk IV instead of Mk III? I'd imagine any troops which required mobility (a facet in which Iron armour didn't excel), Maximus would have been preferred. So the fluffiest units to give Mk IV to would be units assault marines, seekers, and recon marines - even outside of these specific unit types, any Legionaries within wider formations that specialised in rapid engagements would likely equip Mk IV.

 

When it comes down to it, you can do pretty much whatever you like and come up with a feasible explanation. Maybe a force of Iron Hands which had served on extended assignment with the Sons of Horus, so had adapted their tactics & equipment to compliment the XVI^th Legion's swift decapitation strikes? What about a Clan which had just returned from a three-year long campaign away from the main bulk of the Legion just as the Heresy unfolded, so were equipped by the pattern of armour in greatest abundance at the time?

 

Tl;dr: your Iron Hands can have as much Mk IV as you want :P

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm using similar logic for my Salamanders. Mine are a strike force who missed Isstvan due to having to resupply after a hard campaign against the Eldar¹. They've almost all got Mk IV because almost all of their armor is new, replacements for critically damaged Mk IIIs they were wearing, or just plain old upgrades that they ended up with while they were getting resupplied anyway. As they gather and integrate surviving Salamanders from along their madcap race towards Terra (read: I buy more Forgeworld to grow my force!) I'll start to have Mk III and MK II armor as well.

1) Also entertaining is the idea that the Eldar might have kept them delayed away from Isstvan for just that reason...

[RandomMarine]

I play iron hands and with the BAC box making 2 tac squads in mk4 and with a few random helmets and extra studded pads I'm gonna say its gear that was scavenged post istvaan from the corpses of traitor

I have a few of these ttohttp://chapterhousestudios.com/image/cache/data/Cog%20Grey-500x500.jpg

[Brother Dallo]

I say that it's cannon that the Iron Hands had at least some Mk IV at Isstvan. Look at the video about Fulgrim, where it is specifically pointed out that the base represents Isstvan V, and that the Mk IV corpse was sculpted to be an Iron Hand, hence the bionics.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Fulgrim-Primarch-of-the-Emperor-s-Children

 

I feel that's enough to justify using Calth models in your force.

 

Hope this is of use.

 

Dallo

[Marshal Rohr]

Every legion has tons of mark 4. Enough to build your army.

[DuskRaider]

Mk. IV Armour would have improved communications abilities along with more sophisticated arrays and firmware at the cost of more frequent maintenance and less protection compared to Mk. III... Honestly, I play Death Guard and while Mk. IV armour on my rank and file is relatively low (10 out of 60+ Marines, and even then they have things Mk. III pauldrons on the army facing the enemy, sometimes alternate power cells or different armour pieces to represent field repairs), almost all of my HQ has Mk. IV in some way, shape or form to represent the superior technology. To represent Artificer Armour on my Sergeants, I have them wearing Mk. IV Destroyer Armour (it's much heavier than normal Mk. IV) with Mk. III Breacher helms, Mk. III pauldrons, and the alternate Mk. II / Mk. III Power Cells seen on Rapier crew (to represent the further thrust needed to move such a heavier set of armour). The way I look at it is, the Legion would like the improved comms and sensors, but does not want to sacrifice protection. Any Comms. model has Mk. IV as well. So I can see Iron Hands preferring Mk. IV for some campaigns or on select troops or individuals.

[LongGone]

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

 

Just because a certain legion is associated with a certain mark of armour, or a certain tactic, or a certain unit, does not mean you have to include it in your army. The legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands, and and they didn't all look and operate the same. In fact, where does it explicitly state the Iron Hands extensively used Mk III? I don't remember seeing it anywhere. I'm pretty certain its just been a generally accepted design choice by the community at large. And if that's the case, :cuss 'em. They're your little plastic men, and you can do whatever the hell you want with them.*

 

*within reason and respect to the rules.

[Calas Typhon]

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

Just because a certain legion is associated with a certain mark of armour, or a certain tactic, or a certain unit, does not mean you have to include it in your army. The legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands, and and they didn't all look and operate the same. In fact, where does it explicitly state the Iron Hands extensively used Mk III? I don't remember seeing it anywhere. I'm pretty certain its just been a generally accepted design choice by the community at large. And if that's the case, 'em. They're your little plastic men, and you can do whatever the hell you want with them.*

*within reason and respect to the rules.

Nobody has stated that they use it exclusively and no one is telling him to not use MKIV or just use MKIII either.

Just stating that MKIII would be the logical choice fluff wise for most of the standard line in the Legion due to the great ability to modify the armour and the protection it gives, which is perfect for their way of warfare.

[d@n]

Strictly speaking, in the currant fluff, The only loyalist legion, with significant amounts of mark 4 armour was the imperial fists. due to there raid on Mars. Horus deliberately had mkiv plates priority shipped to the traitor legions to give them an advantage.

Iron hands have there own pattern of armour called inviolate armour which is a type of mkiii armour. Saying that the fluff is pretty fluid, as it has been redone over and over again. Anything from mkii to mkvi is alright

[Skalpynock]

Strictly speaking, in the currant fluff, The only loyalist legion, with significant amounts of mark 4 armour was the imperial fists. due to there raid on Mars. Horus deliberately had mkiv plates priority shipped to the traitor legions to give them an advantage.

Iron hands have there own pattern of armour called inviolate armour which is a type of mkiii armour. Saying that the fluff is pretty fluid, as it has been redone over and over again. Anything from mkii to mkvi is alright

On that first point: he also legitimately believed he would be able to sway the Lion and the Gorgon.

On the second, is it said anywhere it is an actual pattern of armour? The only reference I can find in Massacre is their -1S rule on enemy shooting. Which seems to me that regardless of the pattern, their armour is inviolate, perhaps due to inner plate reinforcement or no longer having meat under half of it.

[d@n]

well the only examples of inviolate armours we have are from forgeworld ( iron hands legion squads and immortals ) and there all a version of mkiii. maybe the dark angels have higher numbers of mkiv. im fine with that. but its just as likely he only had them sent to legions that had already ledged allegiance to him. its all speculation anyway.

[Sandlemad]

It's worth noting as well that the Iron Hands were a legion that was quite close to the seat of imperial power, so to speak. I am thinking in comparison with the White Scars or the Night Lords which had more strained or distant relationships with the administratum, the council of Terra and the main imperial war machine.

 

Ferrus Manus was one of the more senior primarchs and Massacre makes reference to him leading large imperial forces and occasionally commanding other primarchs. Tempest also mentions him leading the third early 'main thrust' of the great crusade, the other two being led by Horus and the Emperor respectively. He would have nearly as privileged acess to new tech and supplies as Horus, even if the warmaster was covertly redirecting supplies.

 

It does come down to the preferences of the legion but those are broad and can be tailored to your own personal fluff. For example, Clan Morragul was known to be home to some of the most unruly and insubordinate characters in the Xth, so it may be that they weren't considered a priority for receiving new gear comnpared to, say, Clan Avernii. But then Autek Morr or your officers may have had good relationships with particular forge worlds or branches of the Mechanicum that let them make up for any shortfall.

[d@n]

I don't buy into legions having preferences. by the time the heresy kicked off all legions were desperately short on supplies of  power armour. so much so they were having to invent stop gap patterns of armour such as the mkv.

 

as for the gorgon getting preferential treatment, he was dead right at the start of the heresy and corax had to go begging to the emperor personally to get his legion back up to fighting strength.  

[Calas Typhon]

I don't buy into legions having preferences. by the time the heresy kicked off all legions were desperately short on supplies of  power armour. so much so they were having to invent stop gap patterns of armour such as the mkv.

 

as for the gorgon getting preferential treatment, he was dead right at the start of the heresy and corax had to go begging to the emperor personally to get his legion back up to fighting strength.  

 

Legions did have preferences in the fluff though, whether you buy it or not. The Death Guard are a prime example of that as well as the companies of Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists who dealt with Forlorn Hopes and Siege warfare, MKIV simply did not give as much protection in that way of warfare. 

[Sandlemad]

I don't buy into legions having preferences. by the time the heresy kicked off all legions were desperately short on supplies of  power armour. so much so they were having to invent stop gap patterns of armour such as the mkv.

 

as for the gorgon getting preferential treatment, he was dead right at the start of the heresy and corax had to go begging to the emperor personally to get his legion back up to fighting strength.  

 

Not sure I would agree with any legion being 'desperately short on supplies of power armour' in the lead up to the heresy. As soon as it had started and the supply lines were thrown into chaos, yes absolutely. A force of astartes is an incredibly resource-hungry beast.

 

@Cthonia: I think we have to keep the logic behind the preferences in mind here. The legions had preferred modes of warfare: for the IH it was extremely high-intensity mass battle with physically powerful or technologically advanced foes featuring lots of war machines. Consequently they prioritised getting and maintaining stocks of equipment that lent itself to that warfare: so MkIII armour for it's frontal strength was probably held by the legion in large numbers.

 

But to expand on what LongGone said, even though Massacre notes that the IH were mroe rigid than most in their tactics, they would not fight in this manner all the time (hence how you can take other RoW ruleswise) and this would not be a mode of warfare that every unit or group within the legion would aim for.

IronHandsFanatic listed troop types who might occasionally find more use for MkIV than MkIII. They're all appropriate but I think you could easily claim that some perfectly traditional IH tactical marines might have found MkIV's more advanced sensors and internal tech useful when fighting the high-tech xenos or human empires they encountered during the great crusade, even if it comes at the expense of some durability.

 

@BigBadSquig: Just recalled that one of Autek Morr's honour guard, the Blood Wrought, is shown in Massacre as wearing MkIV. If it's good enough for an Iron Father's personal bodyguard, it's surely good enough for any legionary.

[Memento Of Prospero]

As for the whole supplies problem, Iron Hands were famous for stockpiling equipment, to the point where they are as combat effective/diverse as legions of large size.

 

As for MKIV armour, I can see it used with unconventional army themes. Seekers, recon, destroyers assault maries and such could warrant them, and sprinkling them into your MKIII mainstay units could also help

[Slips]

In large Marine Units, you could use Mk IV to denote new additions to the Squad since they'd be issued the most recent set of "in-production" equipment vs Vets who have their suits, pimped them out and would be loathed to replace them with something else.

[LongGone]

 

Nobody has stated that they use it exclusively and no one is telling him to not use MKIV or just use MKIII either.

 

Just stating that MKIII would be the logical choice fluff wise for most of the standard line in the Legion due to the great ability to modify the armour and the protection it gives, which is perfect for their way of warfare.

I understand no one was telling him what he could or couldn't do. I was simply telling him to tell those who tried to pack sand.

 

Still, you and the community are making inferences from the fluff that aren't explicitly stated. Also don't confuse rules with fluff points. Inviolate Armor is a rule, not fluff. It adds to the tabletop and the little plastic men we play with, but has nothing to do with and is not supported by the established 30k lore.

 

As far as referencing the Immortals models, again it was a design choice. FW chose the 'Iron' armor because its iconic look fits.

[Marshal Rohr]

You guys are all reading too much into this. Every legions has tons of mark 4. It isn't rare, in the sense there only a handful of it. It's new, like a new model car. It is outnumbered by mark 2/3 because of years and years of resupply stocks piling up armor, with the mark 4 coming out later and not having a deep a pool of spares as 200 years of mark 2/3 production.

 

It would be like see the 2015 model mustang next to a 2014 model mustang. There are more 2014's and far more spare parts for them than the 2015 model.

[Memento Of Prospero]

As long as you go with lots of bionics and customize the mark, it's fine. Otherwise, why choose Iron Hands at all?

[Calas Typhon]

 

Nobody has stated that they use it exclusively and no one is telling him to not use MKIV or just use MKIII either.

 

Just stating that MKIII would be the logical choice fluff wise for most of the standard line in the Legion due to the great ability to modify the armour and the protection it gives, which is perfect for their way of warfare.

I understand no one was telling him what he could or couldn't do. I was simply telling him to tell those who tried to pack sand.

 

Still, you and the community are making inferences from the fluff that aren't explicitly stated. Also don't confuse rules with fluff points. Inviolate Armor is a rule, not fluff. It adds to the tabletop and the little plastic men we play with, but has nothing to do with and is not supported by the established 30k lore.

 

As far as referencing the Immortals models, again it was a design choice. FW chose the 'Iron' armor because its iconic look fits.

 

 

I am simply looking at it from a fluff point, that is all.

 

MKIII was famous for its heavy layered plating which was ideal for close quarter firefights and sieges, It has been stated in the fluff that the Death Guard wore a large amount of MKIII plating as it suited the way of warfare for them, which was not all too different to the Iron Hands way of war, taking away of course the majority of nuclear death worlds and chemical deathzones and adding a few more tanks.

 

Ultimately it is up to the person what mark he wants in his army. I was simply stating that MKIII would have been the obvious and logical choice of pattern for the Iron Hands from a fluff point.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Nobody has stated that they use it exclusively and no one is telling him to not use MKIV or just use MKIII either.

 

Just stating that MKIII would be the logical choice fluff wise for most of the standard line in the Legion due to the great ability to modify the armour and the protection it gives, which is perfect for their way of warfare.

I understand no one was telling him what he could or couldn't do. I was simply telling him to tell those who tried to pack sand.

 

Still, you and the community are making inferences from the fluff that aren't explicitly stated. Also don't confuse rules with fluff points. Inviolate Armor is a rule, not fluff. It adds to the tabletop and the little plastic men we play with, but has nothing to do with and is not supported by the established 30k lore.

 

As far as referencing the Immortals models, again it was a design choice. FW chose the 'Iron' armor because its iconic look fits.

 

 

I am simply looking at it from a fluff point, that is all.

 

MKIII was famous for its heavy layered plating which was ideal for close quarter firefights and sieges, It has been stated in the fluff that the Death Guard wore a large amount of MKIII plating as it suited the way of warfare for them, which was not all too different to the Iron Hands way of war, taking away of course the majority of nuclear death worlds and chemical deathzones and adding a few more tanks.

 

Ultimately it is up to the person what mark he wants in his army. I was simply stating that MKIII would have been the obvious and logical choice of pattern for the Iron Hands from a fluff point.

 

 

Mark III is iconic for the VII, X, and XIV, yes. So is Mark II and Mark IV, from a fluff standpoint. Mark 3 has ablative plating, not better plating. Mark IV was supposedly composed of a stronger ceramite, which would've made it more ideal for those 3 legions anyway.