How useful are our "toys", really?

[Blackcadian]

So I'm REALLY new to Blood Angels, and whilst having already devoured quite a few articles and the whole id4chan section, I've still got toooooooooons to learn obviously.

And what I'm wondering right now is - how good/useful are our special red toys really?

I mean I keep reading how great Death Company are, and how they're the be-all end-all when it comes to Assault, but what about the rest?

Do you regularly bring Baal Predators and a Furioso/DC Dreadnaught? What about a Librarian Dreadnaught? How good are Sanguinary Guard, really?

I've read the profiles and the codex, but to be honest nothing there really screamed WOW at me, but most probably, I just don't see it without trying it ingame. I'll love playing the spearhead, assault heavy chapter, I know that. I'm just a little worried that most of my great assault units will get shot off the board before they reach enemy lines.

So yeah, how good is our special stuff?

[Karhedron]

Death Company is pretty much the bees knees for assault squads. They can have jump packs, FNP, FC and can access +1I easily while remaining quite cheap. They have bucket-loads of attacks, can be led by a Chaplain (or Astorath) for rerolls and can be given special weapons if necessary for dealing with especially tough targets. If you really want something nasty, add Dante for repeated charge bonuses via Hit and Run and as a combat monster for challenging enemy characters.

 

Sanguinary Guard look nice on paper but the game has seen a proliferation of too much AP2 which means they pay a lot for a 2+ that does not really provide as much protection as it should in a lot of cases. Also their massed AP3 attacks mean they excel at killing MEQs but struggle against higher value targets without a couple of power fist upgrades. They look cool and can work well with a Priest for +1WS and FNP but need to be used with care (and preferably plenty of terrain).

 

Baal Predators lost a bit of an edge when they lost Scout and got moved to the heavy support section. Blood Angels really don't lack for anti-infantry firepower so I don't rate them that highly.

 

I do like our selection of Dreads however. A Fragioso in a pod or a CD Dread getting dropped off via a Storm Raven can put a lot of pressure on the enemy at short notice. While certainly not indestructible, they provide a serious threat that the enemy will need to dedicate some significant resources to eliminating. If he does, it takes the heat off your assault elements as they close. If he does not, you have a well equipped combat monster stomping through his lines. The Furioso and Libby dread as good for their AV13 which makes them immune to krak grenades.

 

Our Dreads have lost a bit of their shine in comparison to vanilla SM Dreads who now get 4 attacks base but they still have some nice tricks.

 

Don't underestimate the value of fast engines on our vehicles. Vindicators benefit particularly from it due to their short range. Las-plas Razorbacks also gain as they can move 12" and still fire both weapons.

 

Our special stuff is pretty good but our standard stuff is probably slightly less good than regular Marines. This is because we don't get access to proper Demi/Battle companies with the bonuses that vanilla chapters get.

 

Therefore the best way to play BAs is to look at what parts of our lists/toys get the most bang for buck and work out how to bring those with as little tax as possible. Then ally in Vanilla SM stuff to cover our weaknesses. A Baal Strike force focussed around Death Company with a CC Scout squad and maybe Cassor the Damned as Troop choices packs a lot of punch in assault. Our melta-cide assault squads are better than anyone else's and make a great alpha strike

 

Ally in some Centurion Devastators in a Pod with a Librarian and a cheap Obj-Sec Tac squad from the regular marine codex and you have something to take down big MCs efficiently.

 

Alternatively the Skyhammer Annihilation force works really well too. Relentless Devastators in Pods can make real mess of multiple targets. Assault squads Deep Striking and then charging on the same turn are a nasty jack-in-the-box. While not as good as Death Company, they are still Marines and can tie up several targets in assault long enough for our Death Company and other Elite assault units to get across the table and start hurting stuff.

 

Overall I would say BAs are not as strong all-round as Marines but we do have some excellent units and if chosen well and allied to regular Marines to cover our weaknesses, can make a top-tier list.

[Charlo]

I think while Baals aren't as amazing as they could be, there is something to be said taking an allied Baal strike force detachment and putting in three with just inferno flamers on top. Drive them towards the enemy and watch them lose it, no one wants to face that S6 AP3 template.

[Blackcadian]

I agree on the AP3 templates - I had a Bane Wolf tank (AP3, Poison 2+, Template) parked in a game where my Ultramarine friend brought his Skyhammer A. Force down right next to my lines - needless to say he'll remember that specific tank for a looooooooong time.

 

 

And fantastic writeup Karhedronuk - that really helps me a lot!!! Solid gold all of it!

[Charlo]

That's a great point actually, they are an incredible alpha strike deterrent/ absorption.

[SM1981]

The problem I have found with playing BA (and they are the only army I play) is that we essentially have only one trick (which is close combat).

 

Granted we have the well rounded background of being space marines (or maybe space marines light), but essentially all are lists and specialist troops and weapons are geared towards close combat / closer combat.

 

Even the vehicles added speed is there to close the gap quicker and get the men in earlier, or to get their weapons close enough to the enemy to use in the low turns and then dance about a bit to keep it alive and functioning in the later turns.

 

The way to win here is embrace that. Take drop pods. Take as many Death Company as you can. Pair Grav Pistols with Power Fists to concuss big enemy then pound them. Use assault marines as a stalling mechanism that allow the bigger tougher boys into the fight. Take template weapons. Be a little reckless (scouts and assault marines will die. As will Death Company - eventually). It's all about doing more damage to the enemy then they do to you, hitting hard, hitting fast, and leaving them thinking "What just happened?".

 

Sky hammer is great for that. There's an earlier thread where we discus Dev squads in drop pods. These are awesome. 2 squads of 4 heavy bolter plus a sarg, plus 5 regular bolter turns out A LOT of wounds to lightly armoured horde armies. If your playing tougher armies take lascanons and missile launchers. Use the heavy weapons to kill tanks / characters / psykers / whatever. Use the bolter to thin out what is in charge range of of the heavy weapons. Use the assault marines to tie up whatever you can that is left alive in charge range of the big guns. Hopefully they live to turn 2 or 3 so you can repeat the process. In the mean time the rest of your army is marauding up the field and before the enemy know it they're fighting on two sides, and whatever plan they had is well and truly forgotten.

 

Also don't under estimate how useful a Deredeo can be. Lots of big guns and they can also smash the shyte out of flyers. It will sound counter intuitive, but heavy weapons can be a Blood Angels best friend.

 

Basically go all in.

[Charlo]

Shock and awe baby. Shock. And. Awe.

[Blackcadian]

If only the Deredeo wasn't so butt-ugly I like the guns and the missile pods, but the chest area looks like a rubbish bin.

Thanks for the write-up SM1981! I do like that aspect of going all in or how Charlo put it - shock and awe. I'm a little anxious whether I'll get shot off the board vs Eldar or Tau, but anything else I think I'll feel comfortable playing against. Necron close range firepower sucks, too, but at least they're not going to evade you in most cases.

Love drop pods btw (just not assembling them). Love Skyhammer, and am looking forward to also being the beneficiary of awesome formations and detachments some day :/

Maybe I'll try that triple Stormraven formation until then, although that might draw some ire.. wait scratch that, I'm playing vs Necrons, Tau, and Eldar mostly (not kidding), so they can pull their hair out for all I care.

[LutherMax]

I love Sanguinary Guard. Good wargear options, the banner is great and if you add a Priest for FNP they're basically flying Terminators. What's not to like?!

[SM1981]

Eldar are tough (over powered).

 

The key here is plasma, snipper riffles (which ignore toughness), and Heavy Bolter with Hellfire shells.

 

All of these take care of the tougher units they will field, are relatively cheap, and in some cases have a blast marker.

 

Plus no-one cares about scouts dieing. So if you can take out a few of his better units by only sacrificing a couple of infiltrated scout teams, you'll be happy and your oponent won't.

 

Again take a deredeo (or 2) with big plasma guns and watch your oposotion get twitchy. They'll change how aggressive the opponent plays his flyers / skimmers, and also work well as ant infantry. Throw in some stern guard with plasma, some vanguard with plasma pistols, and sprinkle with DC and assault marines. Your oponent will go from twitchy to very sweaty.

 

Just be prepared to always take casualties, and be prepared to loose (quite often at first). Playing BA is about having a good fight, playing an enjoyable game, and maybe (if your lucky) also walking out with a win - But don't bank on it!

[Sigismund229]

As an outsider(mostly, though I did have a short stint playing blood angels) who plays BT, SW and DKoK I'd say that the Blood Angels specialist units are useful when applied properly, they're not an auto win.

 

The Death Company CAN be devestating if they target the right unit(command units, devestators etc. even normal tactical squads) but I've kept Death Company tied up with squads of Blood Claws, DKoK infantry blobs and Crusader Squads, sometimes with an Emperors Champion in(using the old Codex: Black Templars). In all of these games, the Death Company were tied up fighting these units for essentialy the whole game, making them useless in the larger game. If you use death company, the important thing is to keep them moving and not let them get bogged down fighting battles they won't win(not quickly at least).

 

Sanguinary Guard are too expensive for what you get, as a few squads of DKoK infantry equipped with plasma guns, a collection of units that cost about the same as the Sanguinary Guard can knock them out of the fight.

 

Baal Predators I don't play against often but when I do they tend to decimate my DKoK infantry so I throw all my heavy mortars at them, as well as my platoon commands meltas, meaning they distract a significant proportion of my firepower and end up worth their points. Against my two SM armies, they are less useful as they don't have the same capacity for mass death.

 

The BA's selection of dreadnoughts is nice. Both a furioso with a frag cannon and a librarian dread are good options that will force your opponent to react to them and so divert units from executing his main plan, but they're nowhere near as terrifying as a deredeo with plasma. Those things are perfectly capable of killing a tactical squad a turn if you're marginally lucky, meaning they're a fantastic pyschological weapon. A death company dread is the least scary of all the dread options you could take, as I can just target it with a power fist unit, and problemo solved.

 

For how to win with the BA, I'd say hit hard and keep moving. If you start to get bogged down, you lose your assault advantage and most other armies will gradually gain the upper hand if you let them engage you in a static, attritional battle.

[evildrcheese]

I love Sanguinary Guard. Good wargear options, the banner is great and if you add a Priest for FNP they're basically flying Terminators. What's not to like?!

I love the look of sanguinary guard, but there's plenty not to like:

High point per model

Single wound

Low # of attacks

Two handed weapons with no bonus (compare to frost weapons which are power weapons +1)

No invul

The proliferation of ap2 weapons

Need to add characters (priest and Dante) to make them even remotely viable.

 

EDC

[Charlo]

When you compare thier cost with other jumpers in our book internally they're pretty cheap, considering you get artificer, ap4 shooting and a power weapon included.

[evildrcheese]

Point for point, I'll take jump DC over Sang Guard everyday of the week.

 

Now, DC that is a unit that is pulling it's weight in our book. Everyone has covered the main points but I'll just say DC with Chappy and Dante = money.

 

I like the Furioso, especially the frag version. But even dual fist is great fun, talons strike me as a bit pointless with the changes.

 

Baal preds certainly got worse since the last book but my dakka Baal has been doing amazing in my last few games. I can only assume this is due to painting it up recently.

 

EDC

[LutherMax]

Easy answer to that - take both ;)

 

I usually do take both and both generally do very well. Admittedly the Guard need a Priest and / or Dante and that makes the unit expensive as a whole but it also makes them awesome. The 2+ (5++ (sort of) with Priest) is very useful. Ok the swords are two-handed so no attack bonus from them but you circumvent that with the banner and they are Master Crafted so get to re-roll one miss each. +1S from the Furious Charge, +1WS from the Priest, Hit & Run from Dante makes them very formidable on the charge.

 

Just keep them away from AP2 as much as possible and they're golden (pun intended).

[Cronhour]

DC are great as discussed,

 

Sanguinary guard are expensive but with a priest or lib they rip through things. I roll with 7, two axes and a banner plus don't forget the ap4 assault 2 bolters, they can do some damage. Each model gets one reroll to hit in cc, master crafted baby!

 

I'll take baals once we can squadron them or they have torrent, they're just two easy to kill/ineffective at the moment.

 

Dante is a beast ws 6 str 7, int 7, 6 ap2 attacks on the charge, add a priest for ws7 and fnp, add a librarian for a possible int 10 with 9 ap2 attacks on the charge!

 

But really I think we do pods better than most, 135 points for four podded melta shots? 115 for four templates (goodnight guard), podded furioso dreads with frag cannons (assault 2 str 6 rending templates), heavy flamer tac squads, add corbulo into a nine man assault squad (two flamers, two hand flamers) in their free pod, you've got an ok cc unit that's a bitch to counter charge. Two more pods coming down nearby benifit from his initiative bubble meaning their I5 if charged, provides a great beachhead while pack pain jumps up table.

 

Plus people think we're the "meh" codex so with a little bit of creativity you can catch people out.

I suggest raiding forgeworld for fire support though, the quad bolter rapiers (T7, 18 twin linked bolter shots for 120 points) are pretty evil as are the quad motors (t7, 12 shots str 5 ap5 blast with pinning and shell shock (-1 LD on the pinning test) or str8 ap4 sunder (reroll armour pens) for 180points)

 

Deredo , Kheres wielding contemptors, sicarian said, whirlwind scorpius are all very effective options also.

 

Almost forgot scouts, 55 points for an infiltrating unit that gets 15 I5 str5 attacks on the charge, they're one of my most cost effective units game after game.