Facing this Tau Deathstar

[Berzul]

So, I just got ran over by a Tau army at 1300 points, pretty much by one unit.

 

I was playing the following:

 

Company Master with Plasma Pistol, Power Sword and SoH, on Jump Pack, with 8 Assault Marines (2 flamers and Melta Bombs).

 

10 tactical marines, with plasmagun and combi plasma, on a rhino; aided by a ven dread with AC+HF combo.

 

10 devastators, combat squadded into 2 missile launchers on a rhino and 2 plasma cannons on foot (which took to high ground and caused good damage). The rhino was aided by a LC dreadnought.

 

Finally, I had 5 bikes, with 2 gravs and melta bombs, supported by a Landspeeder with 2x Heavy bolters.

 

My OPPONENT ran a devilfish full of firewarrios, supported by 2 footslogging squads of 6 firewarriors, a 2-vehicle piranha squad, a unit of 3 stealth suits, and 2 squads of full marker light geared pathfinders.

 

Then, on a side of the table, he placed a hammerhead with an ion cannon and hia deathstar: 6 crisis suits with 2 plasma rifles each, led by a buffmander in iridium armor (2+ sv) and with a 4++ sv, that gave them tank hunter, twin linked and ignore cover.

 

Im sure this unit has been seen around. I had read about this unit, but this was my first time against it.

 

And, holy hell, it was UNSTOPPABLE!

 

By turn three the score was 9-0 due tu some unlucky/lucky draws of the deck, and all I had left were the devastators (with the rhino at 1 hullpoint), the Las Cannon Dreadnought and the company master, with 1 assault marine still hanging around.

 

Though I did mangage to destroy the devilfish, the piranhas, most of the pathfinders and most of the firewarriors, THAT commander squad left the board unscathed.

 

Game ended at the assault phase of turn three, when we called it quits due to the overwhelming state of the board.

 

Anyone have any ideas on how to even face this unit?

[Volth]

This Tau list would have issues against heavy armour. Even with fusion guns on Piranhas and Stealth, a Land Raider would not face any particular thread. Also Vindicators would mince that Crisis team. And a Whirlwind gets the scouts well done.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, against Tau Whirlwinds are cheap and nasty and kill things with markerlights and Firewarriors in the open, if you have the models take one or two. If you kill everything apart from his deathstar then you can win on objectives most of the time. You will still need a few anti tank things on the table for the piranas and Dfish.

 

Triple Vindies are also nice once he comes closer and negates his vehicles pesky cover saves, they can do some good work on his Deathstar if he gets within 30" of your table edge too (ALWAYS reserve your Vindies, fear of their arrival is a great way to control what he does). This does of course come at a huge chunk of your points and would require a total overhaul of your list, seems a bit drastic ;) Hammer of Caliban would put them behind a Landraider Crusader and you could start laughing earlier in the game :P

 

A cheaper option might be some LS Vengeance AP2 love in a RWSS, just sayin' :lol:

 

2c

bs

[Solrac]

Drop Pod a Grav-gun command squad with Sacred Standard next to the deathstar making sure that you position it so the commander is one of the farthest away. You will chew through most of the suits and the commander won't be able to tank the hits.

 

Also echoing Stobz a Vengeance Speeder in a RWSS with Typhoon Missile Speeders will also make short work of it as they can stay out the Death Stars range and have more mobility.

[Interrogator Stobz]

^^^ :tu: Another relatively cheap option; don't play a linear game vs Tau, they shoot better than us, out maneuver them and kill everything around Buff.

[Berzul]

Sounds like me best choice, for now

[SnakeChisler]

This used to be reasonably scary back in 6th but time has certainly moved on

 

Its biggest issue was always the reserve game, the counter is Null deployment and getting to choose who goes 1st / 2nd is a big deal, tactically reserving just about everything then coming on and blasting his big unit because they come down and have next to nothing to shoot.

 

Putting everything in Rhino is always a good ploy they spend all those points on the squad just to come down and blast a couple of cheap transports

 

Whirlwinds are good because the Tau Command unit has to deal with it asap otherwise it will wreck his troops, couple of drop pods with flamer guys to cook the pathfinders as well.

 

I use loads of speeders with twin HB at 55 there cheap and wreck Tau Standard troops and you don't worry too much at loosing the odd one

[GreyCrow]

@Berzul : You have too much anti infantry in your list and not enough anti-tank/elite I feel. Consider that each Marine body regardless of its unit is anti-infantry and that you reall only have the plasmas in your Tactical Squad, the Devastators with AP2 and the Dreadnoughts with their melee weapons, as well as the Grav on the Bikes.

 

It's not bad to have these, but they are spread out around the units without a couple of strong units that are dedicated for anti elite. What that means is that you are going to have to concentrate firepower of your units onto his crisis team (because you have) to deal with it. You have scaled up your core units more than you have scaled up your support unitsand that shows in your firepower against elite :) On a side note, his list actually scaled up his support as much as his core units :)

 

The different recommendations for you : Drop the Devastators to 5 men and put them with the same weapon. Play the Dreadnoughts as a single squadron or put them in Pods. Drop the single Landspeeder, swap your Bikers for Black Knights.

 

Alternatively you can go for TH/SS or Deathwing Knights in a Land Raider. Or even 10 of them Deep Striking in (but don't go for anything less than 10 if you Deep Strike ;) ).

 

Now, what these recommendations are doing is that you'll have dedicated units that will be a big threat to the opponent and he will prioritize shooting them down. But if you can make them tough enough (more bodies, transport, etc), you're going to be able to determine which targets he will prioritize (because if he doesn't, they will hurt his army) and as such you're going to know where he is going to dedicate his support. :)

[march10k]

So, I just got ran over by a Tau army at 1300 points, pretty much by one unit.

 

[...]

 

Anyone have any ideas on how to even face this unit?

 

You didn't even face what I would consider the nastiest (new) tau unit, the Optimized Stealth Cadre.  Cover-ignoring S7 (some) and S5 (loads) shooting that hits rear armor and itself has a 3+ combined with a 2++ cover save in the open...it's beastly, and there's plenty of room in 1850 to combine it with the buffmanderstar you described and still have points to spare.

 

This Tau list would have issues against heavy armour.

 

This is because he was actually kinda stupid about his loadout.  Dual plasma is nice if you're wanting 24 AP2 shots...when do you ever need that outside of dropping next to a full ten thundernators?!?  Far better is the Helios loadout, one plasma rifle and one fusion blaster.  It's "only" three TEQ-beating shots per suit at 12", but unlike dual plasma, it can actually kill tanks.

 

 

[SnakeChisler]

I'm not sure what your point is about the optimized stealth Cadre

 

That sort of cheese is left on the shelf for most club players & general gaming groups simply because it will turn the game into one where no interaction occurs, similarly just because you can take a Psychic conclave ally and role for invisibility making a Deathstar  to crush a Tau players will to live to counter it doesn't mean you should do it.

 

The new Tau book has a number of things which can and will be abused, argued over & hated but as with anything how much you opponent fetches is up to the 2 parties to discuss and agree too after all a game needs 2 players to interact not 1 to roll dice & 1 to remove his models.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The thread is about giving Taught a run for their money... So let's redirect our expertise on how to fight them. We already know that they are deadly even if ill-equipped so what we need is solutions not problems. :)

[Volth]

This Tau list would have issues against heavy armour.

 

This is because he was actually kinda stupid about his loadout.  Dual plasma is nice if you're wanting 24 AP2 shots...when do you ever need that outside of dropping next to a full ten thundernators?!?  Far better is the Helios loadout, one plasma rifle and one fusion blaster.  It's "only" three TEQ-crushing shots per suit at 12", but unlike dual plasma, it can actually kill tanks.

 

 

Probably. But maybe he just finds the TEq Destroyer of Doom is a damn cool thing. The Tau player's list has few anti AV, but that doesn't make the loadout stupid. In fact it has proven to be deadly against the opponent. It is certainly a good tool, which was used well and fit the situation perfectly.

[Berzul]

 

This Tau list would have issues against heavy armour.

 

This is because he was actually kinda stupid about his loadout.  Dual plasma is nice if you're wanting 24 AP2 shots...when do you ever need that outside of dropping next to a full ten thundernators?!?  Far better is the Helios loadout, one plasma rifle and one fusion blaster.  It's "only" three TEQ-crushing shots per suit at 12", but unlike dual plasma, it can actually kill tanks.

 

 

Probably. But maybe he just finds the TEq Destroyer of Doom is a damn cool thing. The Tau player's list has few anti AV, but that doesn't make the loadout stupid. In fact it has proven to be deadly against the opponent. It is certainly a good tool, which was used well and fit the situation perfectly.

 

 

Indeed. The unit was ideal to face my army. Everything I had on the table was AV 11-12, and 3+ saves are useless against this kind of weapons. Since the unit ignores cover, my bikes had no chance to defend themselves. In a very real sense, it was a unit that could dispense 12 to 24 S6 shots against which I had no saves of any kind. 

 

We played 3 turns. He one-shot a squad of scouts (ignoring cover) on turn one, a Ven Dread on turn 2, then an entire 10-man tactical squad on turn 3. With the Commander on a 2+/4++ and FnP up front tanking wounds, I just didn't have the firepower to stop the unit. Not even to slow it down.

 

Through the whole 3 turns of the game, I managed to get 2 wounds in. One on the commander and one on a crisis suit. This, by using the Plasma Cannons, once he had taken care of my entire vanguard, and started getting closer to my heavy support.

 

Now, I can see some of the things I did wrong with my list. Saddly, some won't be fixable anytime soon due to the fact that I do not have the models for some fixes. I certainly made my army with other units in mind. I was more concerned with this infantry and vehicles, than his elites. My list had good strengths in this sense, I feel.

 

Indeed, I managed to take out the piranhas, the devilfish, almost all his infantry. Fourth turn I'm sure I would have managed to take out his Hammerhead too, as it was drawing closer and I could have managed some good shots at it, and even reach it with a melta bomb to finish it off. 

 

 

But I had nothing to take that crisis unit out, so I would have been tabled in the end anyway.

 

I'm thinking, maybe I ought to get some DWKs to face off against it? T5 might fare better against his S6, and a 3++ or an AV14 of a Landraider seem to be the only surefire alternatives to surviving his shooting. 

 

Either that or a RWSS with a Landspeeder vengeance and lots of heavy bolters, a Silence Squadron, or a Whirlwind Squadron with Suppresive Bombardment to take them down through wound saturation.

[march10k]

~shrug~  If he was tailoring his list against you, then, yes, dual plasma was ideal.  In an all-comers list (I despise tailoring to a specific opponent if you're not playing a special scenario like Defense of Koth Ridge, which is explicitly Orks and DA), plasma+fusion is marginally less killy (meaning less overkill, really) against TEQs, but more than makes up for that in the additional capability that it gains.

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is about the optimized stealth Cadre

 

That sort of cheese is left on the shelf for most club players & general gaming groups simply because it will turn the game into one where no interaction occurs, similarly just because you can take a Psychic conclave ally and role for invisibility making a Deathstar  to crush a Tau players will to live to counter it doesn't mean you should do it.

 

The new Tau book has a number of things which can and will be abused, argued over & hated but as with anything how much you opponent fetches is up to the 2 parties to discuss and agree too after all a game needs 2 players to interact not 1 to roll dice & 1 to remove his models.

Great...cheese should be left at home.  So let's pretend it's not out there? 

 

My point is that you can't be ready for a threat that you don't know about.  We can't talk about how to counter a threat without first defining it.  Buffmander-star is not the only tau cheese, and tau can certainly fit both a decently large  OSC and a buffmander-star into one list with room to spare.

 

Assuming that the buffmander star is deepstriking (as is usually the case), then counter-drop pod protocol applies.  Don't give them room to land where your critical stuff is within 12" range, take a round of shooting, then cut them down.  I like the idea of dropping in on the far side of the tanking buffmander if you have an asset for that.

 

To take apart the OSC, the key is killing the stealth drones.  Expect the ghostkeels to be closer to you than the drones, you need to change that.  Get the squad down to one drone and the keels' cover save is reduced, kill all the drones, and no cover save.  At that point, the ghostkeels are T5 5 wound power armored targets, totally manageable.  The stealth teams could also be using the drones, in a different way...if the drones (and ghostkeels) constitute an intervening unit, then the stealth suits have 2+ cover in the open.  Deepstriking behind the ghostkeels eliminates this, reducing the stealth suits' save and possibly making the drones closer to you than the keels.  The stealth suits are less of a problem than the ghostkeels, so I would worry about them last.  A landspeeder, bikes, or a barrage weapon would be good for getting shooting that kills the drones without dealing with 2++ ghostkeels first.  Obviously, the speeder or bike option involves risk in that return fire would ignore jink.  On the other hand, sacrificing a speeder to gut the keels' cover save is probably worthwhile, and the bikes would still be T5 and have their armor save.  Still, a whirlwind would be the best way to kill the drones, and whirlwinds are a good idea against tau anyway.

[Trevak Dal]

With the list you were using I would have tried to use my rhinos as a mobile bunker to deliver my hq and assault marines into the deathstar and aim for the exhaust port.

 

Move everything in a phalanx as fast as possible, so long as the assault squad and master make it in. If you can set it up, have each squad in the rhinos hop out and kick the door for the assault squad.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that like scatbikes, he can easily wipe even 20 man squads, and unlike the elves he can diversify his firepower to different targets. That big of a squad defeats the purpose of a crisis team, concentrated firepower in a small footprint, unless you are going with Farsight Four fingered Death Touch (he doesn't scatter I've killed horus and angron with Farsight and a lot of buddies)

 

Some other things to consider, if he is using a regular crisis team, they won't have Sworn protector (auto pass look out sir), if he's got that many bodyguards...you should outnumber him pretty quick.

 

He has a nasty list that can be super aggressive (I was recommended to play chaos for how aggressive I play with tau)

[march10k]

 That big of a squad defeats the purpose of a crisis team, concentrated firepower in a small footprint

 

That's true...three teams of three are generally better than one team of nine...it's the buffmander that provides enough benefit that makes it worthwhile to blob up.

[Berzul]

A team of six crisis with a buffmander, dispensing 12 to 24 shots at S6 AP2, can, and in fact did, wipe out any one unit or squad per turn. Jetpack movement allows him to reposition after each attack. This unit can, and again, did, move across the board very fast, outmaneuvering most squads.

 

It may be concentrated fire, but it was not the only thing in the army. So while his piranhas, firewarriors, stealth suits and hammerhead managed to distribute power against the half of my army that wasn't facing the Deathstar.

 

That side of the fight, blow for blow, was pretty even, and makes me think that had I focused all my attention there, his forces would have been insufficient to hold their ground, leaving the deathstar pretty much alone on the board.

 

But the deathstar itself would not have benefited of being 2 to 3 three-suit squads.

 

He brought in exactly what he needed. In three turns it took out three full units. In six turns, he would have taken out six whole units. Since my army was composed of 8 units, that is pretty much all he needed to defeat me.

[MadMek83]

Tau are nasty however Whirlwinds are great and cheap fire suppressor. You can first shooting turn fry their pathfinders remove any non-vehicle markers lights then and thus protect your landspeeders,  dark shrouds and bikes. 2nd turn of firing you can force any foot slogging fire warriors taking cover or prefirably go to the ground. If fire warrior units are gone to the ground, as far I and gamers here look rules, they cannot fire supportive overwatch (they can fire only overwatch if they are assaulted) nor they cannot participate to + 1 BS shooting.

 

Prioritizing things are key: Any marker light infantry and Ghoost keel units. Ghoost keel itself is not that threatening or that its unlike you can kill it with WW's but with WW's Castellan you can force stealth suits take armor saves remove them and possible break formation before they can do mirror tricks or shoot rear armor With 3 WW's shooting they gain shred which is invaluable. If you are worried about going 2nd you can try to bubble wrap unit somehow so, that Ghost keel units burst cannons cannot reach WW's. Taking out marker lights if you don't have landspeeder vengeance or land speeders or any unit that requires cover to survive then you can prioritize ghostkeel and its stealth suits. Most people trust those combo's. Tau is mobile but DA can still have units that out maneuver units. Black knights are good harassment units for tackling Breacher units in Devil fish. The Silencer squadron is God sent even Tau gets insane amount of interceptor its all about saturation and prioritizing. That amount fire power Silencer Squaron brings enough fire power to actually fight fire with fire. DA still have advantage in armor saves and when forcing Tau making lots of saves by using blast, large plasts, tampletes for insane amount of bolter fire, they will keel over and die.

 

Unlike most Power Armor armies, DA will have most answers to fight against Tau. It just needs to be cunning and ruthless as hunting lion. Use any weakness and error enemy makes and force any play its weakness. Slow initiative and poor armor saves majority of units. 

[march10k]

A good way to kill buffmander units is bikes with grav guns.  It's a really good way to close the gap and get your shots off without first giving them a turn of beating you with 3-4 twinlinked cover ignoring AP2 shots per model.  Your bikes will die, but if you take down the commander himself in exchange (wounding on 2+ with grav, it's likely), it's worth it, the remaining suits are far less dangerous and far more vulnerable.  If you can engineer things so that the buffmander himself isn't the closest model, krak missiles insta-gib those two-wound crisis suits.  Lascannons force the buffmander to take 4+ saves (assuming shield generator) instead of 2+ saves, but be prepared to torrent down any shield drones (heavy bolters are good for this) first, you don't want to waste a lascannon shot on a drone.  Buffmanderstars make for a really really strong alpha strike, but they're not really incredibly hard to kill once they've landed.

 

The key to taking down an OSC is not the stealth suits, they're actually the last thing you target.  First, you want to kill the stealth drones.  The problem is that the ghostkeels are likely to be the closest model, forcing you to go through their 5 T5 3+/2++ wounds first, and if you do, the drones cease to matter.  But if you kill the drones, the ghostkeels are easy to kill,  and if you kill the ghostkeels, the stealth suits lose the formation special rules.  So how do you do that? 

 

Well, if you're deepstriking, it's pretty simple.  Ignore the killy stuff, and drop where you are closer to the drones than you are to the ghostkeels.

 

If you have a barrage weapon (like whirlwind), target the drones with it.

 

If you have stupidly fast stuff, maneuver to where it can kill the drones without going through the ghostkeels' 2++ cover save.

 

Obviously, if you have the ability to get stuck in with the ghostkeel unit with a melee unit, especially if they didn't buy vectored retrothrusters (it's not high on my list as a OSC player, I'd rather have skyfire than hit and run), that's obviously the best choice...I'm thinking DWK in a crusader...

 

But for shooting purposes, the key to dismantling an OSC is to deal with the drones first, then the keels, then the stealth suits.

[rdemings]

was he deepstriking the suits?  ravenwing support squadron with ac/hb and a ac dark shroud are doing all kinds of work for me, and with intercepter, they can cause issues for his suits just from sheer volume of fire, once you factor in strafing fun.

 

alternatively, i would switch the bikes to black knights, they're just too dang strong for the points, and i would have charged the buff star as soon as possible with a combat/tac squad to take the overwatch, and then get the bikes in also.  had a game at NOVA this year that basically went down just like that, with my chapter master squashing farsight and 3 suits in a challange, and the rest of the knights and librarian wiping out the buffmander, drones and a couple more suits.

 

like said above, against tau, you cannot remain static.  you have to out manuver and get into combat.  use the rhinos/dreads to block line of sight so they don't get supporting fire, and then charge away.  good luck on your next game!