Truesight Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 http://imgur.com/a/e7IN7 Sharing tank orders looks fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 That is solid as long as it's not a crapton of points. The rest is kind of bleh. Standard may be useful if you run blobs, although the drawback is harsh. Cane is okay as long as it's 5 points. Pistol is cute as a fun option. Melee weapons, really? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4231676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Standard of the Lost 113th could be something, put 'em in a vehicle and plant it in there :) Otherwise who would you put the Celeritas on? Can't think of a single model I'd want in a challenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4231707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Yeah, seems odd to get melee weapons but it's supposed to be fighting Tau so maybe GW thinks we'll be getting in close? Some seem quite interesting though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4231782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Eh the Iron Left. I like that one. And the Pistol. i can see my Commander taking that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4231817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Cadian characters now have to challenge whenever they can, so the challenge relics make a bit of sense there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4231950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Depends on their cost and if they are restricted to independent characters or if commissars can take them. No melee upgrade on a Guardsman is worth more than 10-15 points, which is why the re-costing of the powerfist to 25 points was such a load of bull:cuss. It's kind of annoying, Tau get a discount for being terrible in melee, plus a bunch of free rules to counteract their terribleness. IG are not actually any better, but somehow keep getting treated like Space Marines in their rules, cost and organization chart (see Platoon Command Squad). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4232092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Depends on their cost and if they are restricted to independent characters or if commissars can take them. No melee upgrade on a Guardsman is worth more than 10-15 points, which is why the re-costing of the powerfist to 25 points was such a load of bull:cuss. It's kind of annoying, Tau get a discount for being terrible in melee, plus a bunch of free rules to counteract their terribleness. IG are not actually any better, but somehow keep getting treated like Space Marines in their rules, cost and organization chart (see Platoon Command Squad). Agree, except for one thing...guardsmen and fire warriors are equally terrible, but guardsmen cost half as much as fire warriors. Per model, equal, per point, guard is half as craptastic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4232872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Fire warriors have proper guns and proper armour, and a bunch of formations to make them better, and shooty indestructible moving cover they take with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4232892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Tau get a discount for being terrible in melee, plus a bunch of free rules to counteract their terribleness. IG are not actually any better, but somehow keep getting treated like Space Marines in their rules, cost and organization chart (see Platoon Command Squad). Not true. Tau also get stupidity when it comes to melee, just not as much. The Shas'ui upgrade - it's 10 points for +1 Ld and +1 Attack. +1 Attack, on an army that actively discourages it's troops from training in melee, an army of WS and Int 2 guys. An army with no melee upgrades. It's an even worse upgrade than the 10pt Guard Veteran Sergeant - at least they can take melee weapons and have a WS and I that means not everyone is hitting them on 3's and attacking first (note that doesn't mean it's a good upgrade on Guard, it's still awful ). They may not suffer from the stupid costing of melee upgrades like Guard, but that's only because they don't have any melee upgrades in the first place (sans one Onager Gauntlet per army). You can bet if they had access to the standard Imperial stable of melee weapons they'd be paying 25pts for a power fist, 15pts for a power weapon etc. Lets face it, every army in the game suffers from this*. GW's standard +1 Ld and +1 attack on squad leader upgrades is outdated and idiotic. Some armies, like Marines, suffer from it less due to their inherent stats and abilities. But even then how often do you see competitive Marine players take Veteran Sergeants? The same deal is true of the stupid costing of weapon upgrades, but that's not a melee problem nor just a Guard problem. A power fist isn't worth 25pts on a Guard character. It's also not worth 25pts on a Marine Veteran Sergeant. It wouldn't be worth 25pts on a Shas'ui if they could take them. Same deal for guns - plasma pistols aren't worth the same on a BS3 Guard character as they are on a BS4 Marine. This isn't some anti-Guard conspiracy, it's GW's bad games design legacy shining through decades after it should have died (to be fair, it did briefly die for 4th edition, but then raised it's ugly head again in 5th). *Except for Eldar, because Phil Kelly's special snowflake rainbow elves get characters that are actually worth it. A ton of stat upgrades for the same price that we get Vet Sarges, Shas'ui's etc and weaponry that fits their chosen role and is reasonably (or unreasonably for the items that are too cheap) priced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4232976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Never said it was conspiracy, because that implies competence and ability to stick to a plan. GW has not demonstrated either of those things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Fire warriors have proper guns and proper armour, and a bunch of formations to make them better, and shooty indestructible moving cover they take with them. Ah, I see the disconnect. I read your entire previous post through the lens of melee. I'm not sure the "discount for sucking in melee" claim is accurate, but in any event, it's impossible to support or oppose on the basis of anything other than opinion, so it's probably not worth arguing about. I do think that if fire warriors were "discounted," as you say, you'd see people throw down 72 of them instead of 6-12. Personally, I like them and often go with 3x12, but that's almost un-heard-of. On your broader point, I don't think you can make a valid comparison between a brand new tau codex (with formations and new units) and an old IG codex (before formations were a thing), and any IG formations that get buttoned onto a campaign book aren't really a reasonable substitute. Wait till IG gets its next book (possibly in 3-4 months?) and then compare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Wow, GW literally crapped a hole through the bed with this one. How often do they expect to see IG in challenges or even fights they could win? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Against Tau fairly often I assume... I think that's a key thing to remember here in that this isn't a normal release but rather specific to a campaign against the blue space fish for good or ill. As mentioned elsewhere this isn't our new codex where we can surely expect tastier fruit to pick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Curious to see what the rules for a Cadian detachment are. I assume some form of chapter tactics-esque bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 If cadians are getting kewl stuff one can hope catachans get something too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 'all catachans are immune to poison, have stealth and carry demolition charges'.Would be very fluff accurate! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Curious to see what the rules for a Cadian detachment are. I assume some form of chapter tactics-esque bonus. Hopefully, as that might bode well for the codex update... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Wow, GW literally crapped a hole through the bed with this one. How often do they expect to see IG in challenges or even fights they could win? I win melee all the time...against other guardsmen and against bovine space commies. Tau are more allergic to fisticuffs than we are, so they're aware of the threat and try to avoid it...but IG opponents expect my ten carapace vets to jump out and shoot at their CCS...they're stunned the first time I charge them instead...let's see, ten men in carapace armor with the charge bonus against a colonel (better statline and a 5++, but typically no power weapon) and four gimps in flak armor...it's a bloodbath! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4233973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Well after seeing some of the Mont'ka formations getting relentless, massive Pysker buffs, and such I think seeing 200 guard with invisibility, prescience, forewarning, iron arm, endurance, warp speed, and force weapons equipped with some of these CC relics and then planting the flag while in combat could be viable somewhere. Not really something I'd be excited about in a maelstrom mission but oh boy imagine The Relic! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4236094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 You hafta be pretty lucky to roll all those powers with just 8 shots at the table though! (higher level buffed by nearby squads does NOT mean more powers). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4236297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Oh I would take about 30 + warp charges worth of that formation. I didn't see anything limiting how many times you could take each. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4236384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Hmm.. still.. you'd need something to accomplish something in your force. Even with 50 invisible, iron-armed, re-rolling to hit you're still.. I dunno. 50 slow guardsmen. So the opponent will eat your psykers o.O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4236501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Enemies of the Emperor can not catch your Psykers IF YOU UNLEASH THE WRATH OF THE EMPEROR ON THEM! *signals artillery and super-heavies to fire WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4236512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Ah. I believe we might play at different point levels Immersturm. After a thousand points of Guardsmen with 'several psyker units' on top I'm looking at 1500 chickenscrawled on my table. And I've been playing a lot of 1500 point games lately, which doesn't leave a lot of room for the Voice of the Emperor to scream vengance across the battlefield Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316315-new-cadian-relics-leaks/#findComment-4237029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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