Legion Praetor/Centurion fluff/rules

[Brother Callius]

Hello fellow hobbyist, my question today is twofold:

(Word wall incoming)

 

1: Fluff question

I am currently Building my Imperial Fists 41st Company from the ground up with fluff and all. It is for all intents and purposes a standard battle/ line Company and is lead by a Captain like any other standard Company. My question is this; would a bog standard Captain be considered a Praetor or a Centurion in the Legion hierachy (both rules and fluff wise)?

 

From what I can deduce a Praetor is sort of a big deal within the Legion hierachy and a Centurion is a more common title. I know the specific titles vary greatly from Legion to Legion but since there are only those two titles in the rules I am not concerned with the individual titles like Housecarl, Lord Commander, Iron Father or what not from the different Legions.

 

2: Rules question

Whatever my Captain ends up becoming, I would like to know if a command squad can only be taken by a Praetor or special character and not a Centurion?

 

As far as I understand a Centurion is on his own without any command squad but you could make a veteran tactical squad that just follows him around in games and that would make up for it. But since I am kind of OCD when it comes to canon fluff I would be glad to get some help on this one.

 

So basically it boils down to this: Is a standard Captain a Praetor or Centurion, and can a Centurion take a command squad?

 

MODS: Sorry if it's the wrong subforum, please feel free to move it.

 

[Slips]

No, youre fine here.

 

First, for a bog standard captain, hes going to be a centurion. If, however, hes earned the title Seneschal or Castellan through his fluff or has led multiple companies at some point then he could be a preator easy-peasy.

 

Rules side, only Preatorians, Primarchs and specific named HQs can take command squads.

[Marshal Rohr]

No, youre fine here.

 

First, for a bog standard captain, hes going to be a centurion. If, however, hes earned the title Seneschal or Castellan through his fluff or has led multiple companies at some point then he could be a preator easy-peasy.

 

Rules side, only Preatorians, Primarchs and specific named HQs can take command squads.

Then why is Polux a praetor? He's only a line captain.

[Lord Blackwood]

 

No, youre fine here.

 

First, for a bog standard captain, hes going to be a centurion. If, however, hes earned the title Seneschal or Castellan through his fluff or has led multiple companies at some point then he could be a preator easy-peasy.

 

Rules side, only Preatorians, Primarchs and specific named HQs can take command squads.

Then why is Polux a praetor? He's only a line captain.

 

Id imagine its because he led more than one  company during Phall 

[Marshal Rohr]

He wasn't supposed to though. He was only in command of the 405th. So he would still be a centurion.

[Slips]

He commanded the retribution fleet after his mentor got a case of the warp shenanigans and was the guy who, with some help, orchestrated a primarch-killing strategy that might've worked were it not for Dorns recall arriving at that very moment.

 

I mean, its hindsight and all but he, unlike a bunch of possibly worthier captains, goes on to sire the Crimson Fists.

 

Of those that go on to found chapters down the line:

Siggy was first captain

Fafnir Rann was a Seneschal

(Total brainfart atm)

And then we get to Polux - line captain he may be, hes still an exceptional one.

 

If OP can write the fluff to justify his Line Captain being a Preator then I wont say no. Especially for game terms since it opens up the floodgates in terms of RoW usage and stuff.

[Marshal Rohr]

Line captains are praetors as a given, because they command battalions. Centurions command companies.

[Slips]

Hm.

 

To me line Captains meant Captains in charge of Line Companies.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

More power to Callius, then.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm just going by extermination. The way the novels make it sound the 405th was primus inter pares of the companies aboard the tribune given the 55th was part of Polux assault on the Contrador. I organize my fists with a praetor and multiple centurions within the same company based off of Laurie G's description of legion organization on TFE.

[Slips]

Fair enough.

 

I should re-read extermination, actually.

 

...I still want to know just WHAT is a Volkite Imploder!?!?!

[Marshal Rohr]

I'd imagine instead of deflagrating out wards it goes inwards?

[Raktra]

[Slips]

I'd imagine instead of deflagrating out wards it goes inwards?

 

@_@ Its one of the mysteries of the Choom that I'll have to live without the knowledge of v_v

[apologist]

The colour text for Praetors in Betrayal reads:

 

 

'Praetors are the mightiest warriors and battle-leaders of the Space Marine Legions, second only to the god-like Primarchs in martial skill and generalship. These lords of the Imperium hold the power of life and death over whle worlds, with the direct control of entire war fleets and armies in thei hands. Each is a vastly experienced warrior and warlord, unique in character, who has writ a legend in blood for themselves, and carries into battle the finest wargear and weapons known to humanity. In their ranks can be found Chapter masters and Lord Commanders, First Captains, Khans and Tribunes as the traditions of their Legions dictate. They are the masters of war and have commanded the hosts of the Great Crusade that have conquered worlds unnumbered.'

 

...and for Centurions:

 

 

The ranks of each Space Marine Legion are tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands strong, and as such require a substantial core of battle commanders and officers to control and co-ordinate, as well as more specialised ranks and roles which help give a Legion its operational depth and strategic flexibility. The Centurion represents such leaders, champions and line officers, and whether a Company Captain in command of a thousand or more Legionaries on campaign, or a Shield-Lieutenant given charge of a boarding part in a savage space battle, to have risen in the ranks means they have already demonstrated their worth in the bloody fires of conflict.

 

So I think I'm with Slipstreams on this one. Generally speaking, Praetors are exceptionally high up in the command structure, while Centurion encompasses more everyday officers. That said, I think both the background and army list have been left intentionally fluid, so there's flexibility and justification for you to use either set of rules as you wish.

 

Rules-wise I can easily see why most people would assume the Praetor is equivalent to a 40k Captain (rather than the Centurion), owing to the statlines. The Centurion is somewhere between a Chaplain/Librarian and the 40k Captain, with 2W and 3A. This statline seems pretty modest for a model that may be your 'best guy' – particularly if in background terms he's in charge of a thousand marines. Secondly, the way the rules are set out for the Centurion makes it look like the Consul options are a default choice – making a generic Captain from the choice means you get no special rules.

 

Anyway; back to the question:

 

 

 

1: Fluff question

I am currently Building my Imperial Fists 41st Company from the ground up with fluff and all. It is for all intents and purposes a standard battle/ line Company and is lead by a Captain like any other standard Company. My question is this; would a bog standard Captain be considered a Praetor or a Centurion in the Legion hierachy (both rules and fluff wise)?

From what I can deduce a Praetor is sort of a big deal within the Legion hierachy and a Centurion is a more common title. I know the specific titles vary greatly from Legion to Legion but since there are only those two titles in the rules I am not concerned with the individual titles like Housecarl, Lord Commander, Iron Father or what not from the different Legions.

 

As suggested above, I'd say Centurion fits better for the sort of Captain you're building. As mentioned, I think there's are flexibility to allow for some particularly important Captains (in background terms) having the Praetor rules.

 

To take the characters in Horus Rising as an example (and ignoring the fact there are special character rules for these), I'd suggest that Abaddon would be best played as a Praetor, while Loken would be a Centurion. Horus Aximand and Torgaddon could be either. All three of the latter are 'Captains' owing to the way the Luna Wolves organised themselves, but clearly they – particularly Aximand – have more sway than a captain such as Luc Sedirae. (That's clearly open to opinion – it could be argued that all the Mournival should be represented by the Praetor rules. I'm not particularly interested in the minutiae; I simply wanted to show that the rules are likely intentionally flexible to allow for personal opinion.)

 

So, the crux here is the Imperial Fists background, which suggests that there is a level of authority between Dorn and the Captains (which were themselves divided into Senior Captains and Line Captains) – that of 'fleet masters, siege masters, appointed theatre commanders and marshals' (plus the First Captain).

 

As I read it, these are still Captains in terms of rank, but are temporarily elevated over their peers for the duration of the war. Polux is a perfect example of this – a Captain who becomes the de facto fleet master. Still a captain, but here the Praetor rules would be more appropriate to allow access to the Master of the Legion rules and rites of war.

 

 

 

2: Rules question

Whatever my Captain ends up becoming, I would like to know if a command squad can only be taken by a Praetor or special character and not a Centurion?

That's correct; Praetors only. Betrayal says:

 

 

A Legion Command Squad may only be chosen as a retinue for a Legion Praetor, and may not be taken as part of an army on their own. [...]

 

 

As far as I understand a Centurion is on his own without any command squad but you could make a veteran tactical squad that just follows him around in games and that would make up for it. But since I am kind of OCD when it comes to canon fluff I would be glad to get some help on this one.

Yes, that's right. The Legion Command Squads are, I think, intended to be rare in background terms – an Astartes could quite easily fight in a campaign and never see one. This would, again, vary by Legion.

 

In Imperial Fist terms, I'd suggest that you decide whether your Line Captain is in charge of his own troops on the field – in which case I'd suggest you use the Centurion rules – or whether he has been temporarily put in charge of the whole theatre (i.e. the prosecution of a war to take a world or system), in which case he could be an 'appointed theatre commander' and use the Praetor rules. 

 

[Brother Callius]

Thanks a million guys, that where some better answers than I thought I would get.

 

The issue has now been cleared and I will make my Captain a Centurion, since it better fits my narrative.

I might still do a veteran tac squad just to get some more badass minis to make sure their Captain doesn't get killed.

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah I feel like FW should have put a limit - possibly with points - on praetors (& Archmagos & Lord Marshals) to justify their rarity & seniority. But then they would be harder to use in Zone Mortalis/small games...

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

Yeah I feel like FW should have put a limit - possibly with points - on praetors (& Archmagos & Lord Marshals) to justify their rarity & seniority. But then they would be harder to use in Zone Mortalis/small games...

They actually did to an extent.

 

Praetors have the Master of the Legion rule (which allows them to take a Rite of War) however part of that rule also says that you can only take one character with the Master of the Legion rule per 1000 points. So in most armies, you'll only have 1 max, and even in bigger games it's a hard choice between an extra Praetor and some of the more specialist, but effective support officers so I imagine it would be less likely than it could be.

 

 

@Callius - sounds like a good idea with the Veteran Tactical Squad! I certainly would as it would act like an alternate Command Squad and keep your Centurion safe, whilst it can also be a strong (if expensive) ranged unit - not everyone rates them but I'm a fan. Although as you're Fists, Templar Brethren may be a nice alternative and can also act like a Command Squad.

[Black_out]

I think a good example would be Loken is a praetor and he appointed Vipus as his Centurion?

[apologist]

@Callius - sounds like a good idea with the Veteran Tactical Squad! I certainly would as it would act like an alternate Command Squad and keep your Centurion safe, whilst it can also be a strong (if expensive) ranged unit - not everyone rates them but I'm a fan. Although as you're Fists, Templar Brethren may be a nice alternative and can also act like a Command Squad.

 

 

Yes, Veterans will make a nice command squad equivalent; while still being interestingly different from the 40k aesthetic. :)

Including a nuncio-vox and modelling the vexilla as a banner would be a fun way to hint that these are Tacticals on special duty.

 

It's also worth noting that the other generic squad types can work well as pseudo-command squads for Centurions of different types or in different legions. A Tactical Support squad with flamers would make a fun accompanying squad for a Salamanders or Word Bearers Centurion, for example; while a Recon squad could work for Raven Guard, Alpha Legion or simply for a Vigilator Consul. Seekers could be a good thematic match for a Vigilator or Legion Champion, too.

 

For the Fists, a Breacher Squad would be a cool accompaniment, particularly if your Centurion has a shield. As Apostle of the 30th suggests, the Imperial Fist special units (like Templars) are also a great option.

[Hydriatus]

I personally use Delegatus as Company Captains - since companies can be specialised in weird ways, the fact that Delegatus can take Rites of War helps show how a Chapter can be made up of various elements the Preator can call upon.

[Balthamal]

Most "line captains" would have served with a trusted squad during battle anyway. If we're taking a line captain to be someone holds the rank of captain but isn't in overall command within a Legion where a company isn't the over-arching unit of organisation - I mean Tarvitz was a company Captain but is noted by other characters to be a line officer under the Lord Commanders of the Millenials and the Ultramarines would have probably a dozen captains per company as well. An example of a line captain within a Legion where the company is the de facto unit would be Ekaddon of the SoH. He has Captain rank and leads his own men (the Catalun Reavers) but stands beneath Abaddon and likely Kibre in the company hierarchy.

 

Overall, a Delegatus would be the best shout. They're the sort of middle ground between the really big players and the leaders of the rank and file and considering we're talking the Fists, it's a decent enough tie in with their organisation. As far as command squads go, I think you've got free reign. You can make it a designated command squad including the banner etc or just have him fight with the most senior warriors in the company who he's fought with dozens of times before and trusts above all others. 

 

As in most things with 30K Rule of Cool wins 99% of the time

[LongGone]

Here's the thing, do you ever plan on taking a RoW? If so, then your Captain probably needs to 'be' a praetor.

 

Here's another thing: the titles of praetor and centurion are rules-based constructions meant to influence the tabletop. Leave them out of the fluff. Khârn was referred to as a centurion, but he's mopping up the tabletop as a praetor level character.

 

*searches for SouthPark meme that reads "If you let the rules dictate your fluff, you're gonna have a bad day."

[v6v77]

As far as i am aware and Centurion Delegatus can take a command squad as a body guard.

[Conn Eremon]

On the matter of line captains to line companies, Extermination (p. 64) specifies the Imperial Fists as having senior captains, line captains and centurions in charge of Chapters (Regiments, Crusades, Households), Battalions and Companies, respectively. Imperial Fist Captains of the line are in command of Battalions, over Centurions.

 

That is the reference Rohr seems to be going off of.

[Marshal Rohr]

On the matter of line captains to line companies, Extermination (p. 64) specifies the Imperial Fists as having senior captains, line captains and centurions in charge of Chapters (Regiments, Crusades, Households), Battalions and Companies, respectively. Imperial Fist Captains of the line are in command of Battalions, over Centurions.

 

That is the reference Rohr seems to be going off of.

Thanks, Conn! Didn't have the book handy when I posted but that was the hierarchy I was going off of :) .

 

To be more specific I think the Imperial Fists are organized similarly to the Sons of Horus. They have assault echelons of terminators, which seem to fill the role of battalion level bodyguard formations organized for boarding actions, then basic company structures, some of which can be in the hundreds (the assault squad pictures is in the 60s, implying the company is at least 600 strong). These companies are grouped into battalions under line captains who seem to keep command of their own company (Polux and the 405th with the 55th aboard the Tribune). Senior Captains have their own chapters and also seem to take on the rank of Seneschal, like Rann is a Seneschal and is in command of the 4th company depending on how you read extermination.

 

For the purposes of the OP, a delegatus would accurately represent a centurion leading a line company and also allow access to a RoW.