Why did Corax flee/withdraw from Curze?

[b1soul]

Gav offers an explanation in Ravensflight (or is it Deliverance Lost)...but sounds like mental gymnastics.

 

What's your take?

[Brother Heinrich]

Because he knows when a meaner shark has entered the water ;)

[Saphrael]

Because the Night Lords are pure awesomesauce and should never miss an opportunity to be amazing and make the other legions look silly.

 

[/unnecessarily snarky mode]

 

I just assumed it was because Corax was deep in enemy territory and now facing a foe who was a fair match for him (unlike Lorgar at the time) so the odds were increasingly mounting against him. That said, I haven't read the novels that cover the incident, only the FW HH books.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

My take is this:

Corax believes he can kill both Kurze and Lorgar, at the sacrifice of his life and that of his Legion. However, if Corax withdraws from the fight, he has a chance of saving his Legion.

 

He chose to save his Legion over killing his brothers.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

The First Heretic says he did it to save the remainder of his Legion from being trapped by Sevatar and the Atramentar. Which is most likely how Sevatar got his red gauntlets since that failure can constitute as a muck-up of epic proportions.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and I believe it is Raven's Flight, during his sulking after the last minute rescue.

 

WLK

[DarKnight]

My take is this:

Corax believes he can kill both Kurze and Lorgar, at the sacrifice of his life and that of his Legion. However, if Corax withdraws from the fight, he has a chance of saving his Legion.

 

He chose to save his Legion over killing his brothers.

 

WLK

This is pretty much it in my book.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the only question I have is: Did Corax make the right decision?

 

Now this is monday (Tuesday) morning quarterbacking at it's finest, but let's suppose that Corax did manage to kill both Curze and Lorgar...

 

-2 traitor Legions would be without their Primarchs. In the case of the Night Lords that may be both good and bad. Without Lorgar's influence who knows what shenanigans Erebus and his adopted daddy may have caused...

-Angron may not have ascended to daemonhood, possibly removing another traitor primarch

-the Alpha Legion would not have gotten the Marine Spamminator. Without the ability to make an insane number of Marines, their strength and strikes would be greatly reduced.

 

there are probably more instances, but im tired and spitballing here.

 

WLK 

[Daemon2027]

I think Corax could have killed Lorgar before Curze intervened but he hesitated because he was still coming to terms with the whole brother on brother thing. I'm not sure if he would have been able to take both Curze and Lorgar seeing as they were both relatively new to the fight while Coraz had been fighting for hours. And as others had said he needed to save the remnants of his legion.

[Kol Saresk]

But the Raven Guard would have died and without the eastern flank being concerned with trying to hunt them down, it is possible the Traitors would have been able to consolidate more effectively on the Iron Hands and Salamanders, meaning even fewer Loyalists would have escaped.

 

Not to mention the Traitors would have left Istvaan that much earlier without any survivors to hunt down.

 

So for two Traitor Primarchs, you enter the hypothetical of losing an additional Loyalist Primarch, the actual destruction of at least one Loyalist Legion and a greater initiative for the Traitor Legions to act before the Loyalists can respond.

 

Also, the potential lack of Loyalists escaping the Massacre also means it will take longer for the Imperium to learn four more Legions have turned.

[1ncarnadine]

I'll point out the potential loss of two primarchs doesn't mean as much, when we don't know how badly they might have been wounded.... They might have looked fatally injured, but then it's possible the winning forces might have taken them away and let them recover. It's just all around a bad situation for Corax, and ditching the fight was a smart move.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

But the Raven Guard would have died and without the eastern flank being concerned with trying to hunt them down, it is possible the Traitors would have been able to consolidate more effectively on the Iron Hands and Salamanders, meaning even fewer Loyalists would have escaped.

 

Not to mention the Traitors would have left Istvaan that much earlier without any survivors to hunt down.

 

So for two Traitor Primarchs, you enter the hypothetical of losing an additional Loyalist Primarch, the actual destruction of at least one Loyalist Legion and a greater initiative for the Traitor Legions to act before the Loyalists can respond.

 

Also, the potential lack of Loyalists escaping the Massacre also means it will take longer for the Imperium to learn four more Legions have turned.

 

All very true. 

 

As a RG player Im very happy Corax made his escape. Or else I wouldnt have much a Legion to build.

 

WLK

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

But the Raven Guard would have died and without the eastern flank being concerned with trying to hunt them down, it is possible the Traitors would have been able to consolidate more effectively on the Iron Hands and Salamanders, meaning even fewer Loyalists would have escaped.

 

Not to mention the Traitors would have left Istvaan that much earlier without any survivors to hunt down.

 

So for two Traitor Primarchs, you enter the hypothetical of losing an additional Loyalist Primarch, the actual destruction of at least one Loyalist Legion and a greater initiative for the Traitor Legions to act before the Loyalists can respond.

 

Also, the potential lack of Loyalists escaping the Massacre also means it will take longer for the Imperium to learn four more Legions have turned.

All very true.

 

As a RG player Im very happy Corax made his escape. Or else I wouldnt have much a Legion to build.

 

WLK

Oh, I don't know. Would have been interesting, at least as a what-if scenario, if the only surviving XIX Legion was the exiled nomad-predation fleets. With 30k/40k being a setting more than a story, those elements would have then been drawn out and placed in the limelight, and featured much more prominently than they do now.

 

Dire consequences all around for sure, but an interesting new wrinkle.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Oh, I don't know. Would have been interesting, at least as a what-if scenario, if the only surviving XIX Legion was the exiled nomad-predation fleets.

 

Not really. There'd still be some RG knocking around. Firstly I doubt the entire RG Legion fleet was lost above Istvaan. It was actually a fight up there, and ships of the X and XVIII both escaped, so why not the XIX? Then there's the Deliverance garrison which eventually saves Corax. So bad times, but not quite a Legion wipe.

 

As for why Corax ran? If I'm being facetious the answer is simple 'we already know none of those Primarchs die at Istvaan, so of course Corax runs'. However if I'm beinf serious, why wouldn't he? He already failed to kill Lorgar oncer because of his own hesitation. Now he's fighting 2 of his demi-god brothers (even if one is Lorgar). Why would he think he could kill both of them? One Primarch should not be able to take on 2. I know apparently Gulliman does this later with Lorgar and Angron, but to me that just typifies the mounting issues with the HH series. Primarchs have gone from theses legndary, Herculean figures of legend, to GI Joes 'oh noes, Duke is fighting Destro and Storm Shadow, tune in next week (for £30) to find out how he escapes and nobody dies!'. Whereas in TFH they still retain some of their old mystique

[Daemon2027]

To be fair on the Guiliman point, Angron was near death/daemonhood, and Lorgar was sort of channelling the force, sorry I mean the warp. I do know what you mean though.

 

On topic, I do think the XIX would have continued without Corax, I think their nature would allow them to adjust without a central leader, however I think the deliverance RG would grind themselves down fighting guerilla tactics against he traitors. The pred fleets might see it as an opportunity to return and reforge the 'pale nomads' side of things.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

Oh, I don't know. Would have been interesting, at least as a what-if scenario, if the only surviving XIX Legion was the exiled nomad-predation fleets.

 

 

Not really. There'd still be some RG knocking around. Firstly I doubt the entire RG Legion fleet was lost above Istvaan. It was actually a fight up there, and ships of the X and XVIII both escaped, so why not the XIX? Then there's the Deliverance garrison which eventually saves Corax. So bad times, but not quite a Legion wipe.

Not everything happens in a vacuum though, it all affects each other. If no coherent Raven Guard force remains on the ground, you'll have even fewer X and XVIII survivors, especially with the latter who depended heavily upon the XIX. You also have the Deliverance garrison showing up and, finding nobody to link up to, potentially being destroyed by Traitor forces. As for orbital XIX forces that might have survived, the current story is that none of note did on their own for the XIX or the XVIII. There would be survivors, but a drop from a few thousand and their Primarch, to maybe a couple hundred and no Primarch, would mean that the only thing left of the XIX is the nomad-predation fleets.

[Kol Saresk]

The reason there were so many X Legion ships surviving Istvaan was because the majority of the Legion showed up so late in the game.

 

Most of the XVIII and XIX Legion ships had been encircled by their would-be betrayers in parallel to their forces on the ground.

 

The second X Legion fleet disrupted that and made an opening for retreating ground forces to find ships to escape in. That's why so many of the Shattered Legion stories are so heavily X Legion-based with only scatterings of XVIII and XIX Legion survivors.

[b1soul]

I think Corax vs. Curze is 50/50.

 

Corax and Lorgar were not fresh. Curze was. Lorgar had suffered a very serious wound inflicted by Corax...but as primarch, he'd be able to recover relatively quickly to help Curze if Corax chose to stay and fight...maybe attack Corax from behind or trip him up somehow...enough to be a real threat.

 

I don't believe Corax could have taken the two of them and ensured mutual destruction. I think one of Corax's lighting claws had been shattered by Lorgar, so there's that factor against him as well

[d@n]

Both curze and lorgar, are pretty poor generals in comparison to Horus. And killing either would mean the loyalty of the dead primarch's legion deferring to horus.

[Kol Saresk]

Both curze and lorgar, are pretty poor generals in comparison to Horus. And killing either would mean the loyalty of the dead primarch's legion deferring to horus.

Hehe, not really. Night Lords are barely loyal to their own Primarch. If Curze died at Istvaan, they'd just pick the second star to the right and sail on 'till morning.

[Daemon2027]

 

Both curze and lorgar, are pretty poor generals in comparison to Horus. And killing either would mean the loyalty of the dead primarch's legion deferring to horus.

Hehe, not really. Night Lords are barely loyal to their own Primarch. If Curze died at Istvaan, they'd just pick the second star to the right and sail on 'till morning.

So Sevetar. After he's killed a few of the other top dogs.

[Wade Garrett]

Because Corax on Isstvan was trying to carve a path through the Traitor positions so his sons could escape, not have Angron-esque epic duels with his Traitor brothers.

 

Remember, he only wound up fighting Lorgar because the Seventeenth sought him out, his objectives had nothing to do with fighting Curze.

 

As far as the "But Konrad is SCARY" moping sessions in Deliverance Lost and Raven's Flight, I treat that like I do everything else Gav Thorpe has written about the Raven Lord.

 

That wasn't Corax; it was the Raven Guard's other Primarch they don't talk about much, Khorx. Khorx always means well, but he's dumb as a stump.

[tgjensen]

 

One Primarch should not be able to take on 2. I know apparently Gulliman does this later with Lorgar and Angron, but to me that just typifies the mounting issues with the HH series. Primarchs have gone from theses legndary, Herculean figures of legend, to GI Joes 'oh noes, Duke is fighting Destro and Storm Shadow, tune in next week (for £30) to find out how he escapes and nobody dies!'. Whereas in TFH they still retain some of their old mystique

 

 

To be fair, that is not an accurate representation of what happens in Betrayer. From the moment Angron enters the fray, Guilliman is fighting a losing battle. He's staying alive, but he is taking cuts and blows and wounds, and not giving many back. Even when Lorgar disengages to start his ritual, Guilliman is still being beaten into the mud by Angron, who is simply the better fighter. Guilliman didn't flee because Angron is not someone you turn your back on - to let down his guard is to die. He didn't have the jetpack that Corax had to facilitate his escape. As soon as Angron was caught up in Lorgar's ritual and Guilliman got his chance, he retreated to safety behind his troops.

[Black_out]

I don't think Corax was willing to sacrifice both himself and most of his Legion, along with additional losses to the X and XVIII Legions just to *potentially* kill Lorgar and Curze (which I think we all can agree is a VERY far stretch given the circumstances).

[ElectricPaladin]

An interesting thought: if Curze had died at Isstvan, would the Night Lords have ever gone "full Chaos," or would they have been so scattered by the end of the war that they would have not been pushed into the Eye with the rest of the traitors? What impact would it have had on the history of 40k if the Night Lords had maintained their original (dubious) sense of justice rather than becoming completely warped?