Mixed Wing - Your Thoughts

[jlmb_123]

Hi!

 

I've been writing up a Dark Angels Mixedwing army (here: changes are afoot and rapidly changing) and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on a mixed-wing army are? As it stands, I'm looking at 18 - 21 bikes and 11-12 Terminators with an emphasis on DWSF and RWAS deep-strike synergy plus some nastiness from a RWSF. 

 

However, I don't seem to be reaching a level of "critical mass" wherein I have a sufficient number of bikes or Terminators available and I'm worried that the bikes'll either be picked off or the Terminators will, likewise, end up either overwhelmed due to low numbers or just kind of wander about trying to catch the enemy once they've deep-striked (deep-struck?) in. 

 

What do you think about the Mixedwing? It's super-fluffy (at least under more modern background) but it seems to require a balance which can't easily be met.

[march10k]

I think if you're running an army composed entirely of 30+ point models, you're going to have low model count, it's unavoidable.  You're trading numbers for pure elite offensive output. 

 

Personally, I would have gone the other way with a single maxed out RWAS and then a much more robust DWSF, but overloading on bikes instead of termies is equally valid.  One is susceptible to cover-ignoring (which is the trend these days, one reason I go more for termie spam)  shooting, the other is susceptible to AP2 shooting, both are susceptible to torrenting.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

March nailed it. Mixed wing is excellent in my opinion but there are some match ups that are just going to hurt. I like to use the Ravenwing to fill holes in my DW capabilities. For instance my Attack Bikes bring the Multi Melta and some Knights bring the plasma talons. My DW are the rock and anvil while the RW bring the quick reaction and weight of fire. The rules are great for this.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I second what is being said a DW/RW will never have the bodies, so you have to maximize what you can and learn how to use it. Plus 50/50 is hard to achieve, you have to choose one wing to be the strong point and use the other to support and fill gaps.

[Guardsman1275]

Will you take Sammuel or Belial?

[SnakeChisler]

I've used Sammael with a mixed wing + a Librarian in Terminator armour

 

The Ravenwing Strike Force has a few speeders in it as well

 

You can attach him to Terminators giving them +3 run/charge & Hit and Run, he can pose in front of the terminators and take his 2+ 2+ jink with Nearby Shroud if he wants to + he's a good combo with Deathwing Knights adding some AP2 initiative hits.

 

He's a bit pricey but solves some of the movement problems you generally get with terminators

 

Also the Deathwing works well with the odd Dread added these days

 

Its never going to be a hardcore list but its fun to play and changes things up if you have a regular gaming circle, the guaranteed deployment means your getting the most from it and as has been said it will wilt to some match ups

[Wrath of Bruinen]

I've been playing a fair bit of Death-Raven recently - as everyone has said, it is certainly a challenge (made even more challenging than my brother's tau list that packs an unbelievable number of ignores cover and ap 2).

 

I think those above me have covered the weaknesses really well - with such a low model count, every loss hurts, and it's difficult to reach a critical mass on the table.

 

In my experience, however, the strengths of Death-Raven are well suited to mitigating those problems. In particular:

• guaranteed reserves - RWSF can automatically come turn 2, DWSF can choose when to come on if you have RW (note, the RW don't have to be on the board for the DW to get this benefit, although they can't use 'just arrived' teleport homers), Drop pods can come in turn 1
• survivability - re-rolling jinks that you can easily boost to 2+ or 3+, 2+ armour on termies, access to apothecaries, DWK toughness boosts - a Death-Raven army can be a very tough nut to crack
• manoeuvrability - bikes are zippy little things, and while your deathwing aren't particularly fast, they deep strike so you can kind of get them where you need them to be

 

I think the key to a successful Death-Raven army is minimising the amount of damage you take, especially from shooting. Using these abilities to your advantage, you can have a pretty reliable null or minimal deployment by taking a dread in a pod and a RAWS or RWSS - aim to have second turn (if you get it, deploy nothing and drop the dread in t1, if you have to take first turn, deploy the RW you took, and drop the dread in t1 - that should stop you auto-losing). Then, all your reserves can rock up t2 (bonus points if you took a locator beacon on the pod so your termies don't scatter).

This means that you have mitigated a whole 1-2 turns of your opponents' shooting, massively increasing your survivability.

 

In subsequent turns, use the manoeuvrability on your bikes to minimise the amount of return fire you'll take - pick off isolated units, use terrain to your advantage etc etc. 

 

The most important thing is staying alive - no matter how much stuff you kill, your opponent will probably still outnumber you, and every loss you take hurts. So if you focus on staying alive and really prioritise your targets, you can do well.

 

As has been said, it's a very challenging but fun army to play. It's an unforgiving (and unforgiven!) army, but with plenty of practice you will get a better handle on using the units to support each other etc. You won't win every game, but that just makes victory all the more sweeter when you do

[aura_enchanted]

mixed wing is fine if you limit it to two wings i find that three wings is impossible, your stretching your points across three different groups and the end result is that someone is getting neglected and shoe horned in somewhoere, your tactical marines are barebones, or you have 1 squad of terminators in the whole army, or your bikes dont have any squad upgrades like attack bikes or land speeders and you havent taken any special weapons. all sorts of ways to make a "tri-wing" that really arent triple wing, there more like 2 wings featuring the third wing you shoved in there to try and pretend that youve found the holy grail and brought the triumvirate togeather

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Something to keep in mind, at least for me learning how to play the dual wing (both heavy Raven and heavy DW) taught me how to be a better player and use synergy much more effectively. Probably the reason why DA is and will always be my number 1 is that they taught me how to play the game and sometimes pull out wins from thin air. I believe our codex makes you become a better player if you stick with it. There is no easy button, no Grav cents, though now we have grav dev's but still. Most of our units that are powered are pointed correctly and it is a well "balanced" army give or take a few units. I think if you play exclusively DA you will find your learning curve goes way up over sometime.

 

I also agree keep it down to dual wing only. Tri-wing is too much unless an Apoc game. Greenwing also works well as you once again have to use units that many consider subpar and these have advantages once you learn them.

[SnakeChisler]

If your wanting more Deathwing in the force you can go with Ravenwing Light

 

2 formations from the book for Ravenwing are the Support Squadron and the Attack squadron, the Support Squadron can be trimmed to  245 with lots of heavy bolters & 300 for the bikes AB MM Speeder 2 HB and Grav guns + Combi-Grav

 

So no HQ's & after combat squading you can have 4 units to DS on within 12" no scatter

[Malakai]

I haven't played in a while but I never really understood ignoring Tactical squads. Why not throw in a bare-bone Demi-Company to soak up some fire and sit on an objective. Sure it'll take a few bikes and termies away but they'll still hit pretty hard.

[aura_enchanted]

I haven't played in a while but I never really understood ignoring Tactical squads. Why not throw in a bare-bone Demi-Company to soak up some fire and sit on an objective. Sure it'll take a few bikes and termies away but they'll still hit pretty hard.

 

because your not just removing your units from other wings your taking away your ability to be good at something. bikes actually arent that great in small numbers they require upgrades and love and other things that move at their speed to make them great. and green marines arent great by themselves they need their tanks and veterans and heavy weapons to be good. by taking away points to bring in a third wing your flattening the army out into lots of barebones guys that would otherwise have special weapons or squads are now missing special things they can otherwise get like dedicated transports or attack trikes. and now your army isnt as good as it could otherwise be.

 

the tri-fecta wing is a holy grail; it cant be done without someone getting the shaft somewhere and basically an entire wing being devoid of upgrades or that thrid wing being shoe-horned in as a one off unit often with no thought going into how he gets along with the army OR you jack up the points to ludicrous levels and agree not to take superheavies and forgeworld like 3000 or 3500 points but aint nobody got time for a 3 hour game like that

[Malakai]

I'm going to try. I will probably (most likely fail) to include all three elements.  I like your average trooper. When I pick an army I look for the joe-shmo grunt of the force. Like an Ork boy or an Eldar Guardian. I have 2 units of DW terminators, intend on including a unit of knights, command squad and ven dread. Already have a LRC (though now the deathwing vehicle rules are gone should I paint it as bone or green?). And I have 6 Ravenwing bikes with the intention of including a LS Typhoon, Darkshroud, Talon, Black Knights and Command Squad. Plus trying to pull a whole company of greenwing together.

 

I have to believe there has to be a way for some sort of synergy between the three army elements that won't water them down to uselessness. Good thing I don't mind loosing huh?

[aura_enchanted]

I'm going to try. I will probably (most likely fail) to include all three elements.  I like your average trooper. When I pick an army I look for the joe-shmo grunt of the force. Like an Ork boy or an Eldar Guardian. I have 2 units of DW terminators, intend on including a unit of knights, command squad and ven dread. Already have a LRC (though now the deathwing vehicle rules are gone should I paint it as bone or green?). And I have 6 Ravenwing bikes with the intention of including a LS Typhoon, Darkshroud, Talon, Black Knights and Command Squad. Plus trying to pull a whole company of greenwing together.

 

I have to believe there has to be a way for some sort of synergy between the three army elements that won't water them down to uselessness. Good thing I don't mind loosing huh?

your welcome to try, about the closest you will probably get is a CAD of some kind, the ravenwing attack squadron, and then a deathwing redemption force but then your ravenwing again consists of one unit, you might be able to find points for a darkshroud in the CAD as well so i suppose theres that.

 

i actually run a dual wing with regular marines and deathwing and have a lot of fun with it, one day when money is no object and my new adeptus mechanicus army is done ill come back and maybe add a ravenwing strike force as a force i can swap out for the deathwing as i see fit

[march10k]

 

 3000 or 3500 points but aint nobody got time for a 3 hour game like that

 

 

golly gee?!?  Around here, unless you're playing two low-model-count armies, like mechanized deathwing versus GKPs, 1850 games take more than three hours...

 

 

I'm going to try. I will probably (most likely fail) to include all three elements.  I like your average trooper. When I pick an army I look for the joe-shmo grunt of the force. Like an Ork boy or an Eldar Guardian. I have 2 units of DW terminators, intend on including a unit of knights, command squad and ven dread. Already have a LRC (though now the deathwing vehicle rules are gone should I paint it as bone or green?). And I have 6 Ravenwing bikes with the intention of including a LS Typhoon, Darkshroud, Talon, Black Knights and Command Squad. Plus trying to pull a whole company of greenwing together.

 

I have to believe there has to be a way for some sort of synergy between the three army elements that won't water them down to uselessness. Good thing I don't mind loosing huh?

 

I'm right there with you.  I've been running DA since 3rd edition, and battle company marines haven't been good since 4th...well, except for the dakkapole bolterspam list in the last codex.  I'm really excited at the prospect of making tactical marines great again, and I love my jumpers (who, by the way, cost the same as lightly-kitted tactical marines, yet people still reflexively think "overcosted," as if they were still 25 points a model) and my lascannon devs.  It's tough in 1850, though.  I wouldn't dump more than 400 points into bikes (well, an RWAS) anyway, and I guess I could go for a green contingent of 2x5 tacs, a bike libby (to go with the RWAS, our special psychic discipline is short-ranged and doesn't do much if you're stuck in, so bike libby FTW), and said lascannon devs.  That should leave points for a 16-termie DWSF...

 

I've never run more than 6+1 bikes, so 6 bikes and a speeder is about the size of ravenwing contingent I'd be running in a black/white list anyway.  I could see myself running as many as 21 terminators, but really, any more than 3 squads gets into the realm of diminishing returns, you're definitely sticking to the TDA theme out of stubbornness at that point.  When I really think about it, what I'd be dropping to free points for the green marines is a pair of crusaders (thinking about my list under the old codex)...and I can't have those in a DWSF anyway...so, given that the tanks have to go, adding a green element doesn't seem like it's diluting my strength, I'm getting two cheap scoring units and some ranged antitank that was a shortcoming in the old list anyway.

 

So...without nailing everything down to the precise points costs, I'd be thinking about

 

RWAS: 6 bikes with dual grav and a tornado

CAD: Bike libby, 2x5 tacticals (maybe a plasma gun each?) and 8-10 devs with 4 lascannons

DWSF: 5 knights, 2x5 thundernators (or maybe 4 thundernators and 1 HF/CF)

 

Would I run that in a major tournament?  Well, no, it can't handle invisible deathstars, daemon summoning spam, and all of the other broken WAAC stuff.  Actually, I probably wouldn't run DA in that environment at all, I'd run IG tank spam with a culexus in a valkyrie (yes, I have ways of dealing with the new tau cheese in spite of going tank-heavy). But for going down to the hobby shop on game night and taking all comers in a relaxed setting, yeah, I'd run that triwing list.  I might even win as many as half of my games.

[aura_enchanted]

 

I'm going to try. I will probably (most likely fail) to include all three elements.  I like your average trooper. When I pick an army I look for the joe-shmo grunt of the force. Like an Ork boy or an Eldar Guardian. I have 2 units of DW terminators, intend on including a unit of knights, command squad and ven dread. Already have a LRC (though now the deathwing vehicle rules are gone should I paint it as bone or green?). And I have 6 Ravenwing bikes with the intention of including a LS Typhoon, Darkshroud, Talon, Black Knights and Command Squad. Plus trying to pull a whole company of greenwing together.

 

I have to believe there has to be a way for some sort of synergy between the three army elements that won't water them down to uselessness. Good thing I don't mind loosing huh?

your welcome to try, about the closest you will probably get is a CAD of some kind, the ravenwing attack squadron, and then a deathwing redemption force but then your ravenwing again consists of one unit, you might be able to find points for a darkshroud in the CAD as well so i suppose theres that.

 

i actually run a dual wing with regular marines and deathwing and have a lot of fun with it, one day when money is no object and my new adeptus mechanicus army is done ill come back and maybe add a ravenwing strike force as a force i can swap out for the deathwing as i see fit

 

 

a 2000 point game here is like 2.5-2.75

[SnakeChisler]

For 1850 you can run

Demi-Comany with upgrades (800 - 1100 points)

Ravenwing Support Squad - Aux (250 - 300) or Ravenwing Attack Squad

Deathwing Strike force - Librarian TDA Deathwing Knights & Venerable Dread (480 - 600)

 

In a Tri - Wing List your Raven / Death Wing are always going to be backing up the Green Wing

[aura_enchanted]

Will you take Sammuel or Belial?

people take failial still?

[march10k]

 

In a Tri - Wing List your Raven / Death Wing are always going to be backing up the Green Wing

 

Only if you insist on the green wing consisting of a demi company, which is attractive, but consumes tons of points.  A CAD is probably better for tri-wing, the minimum is easier to satisfy, after which you can plug in whatever you want...like a dark talon or whatever.

[PhilB]

Jesus, 3 hours for a 3,000-3,500 point game is pretty solid.

We're still quite green with the rules so our regular 1,850 point games tend to take a night, taking into account banter, slap talk & dinner/drinks.

That's not to say we butcher the rules either, we're quite thorough with checking things which also takes time.

Tri-Wing though? I love the idea.

We've been trying to organise a custom scenario with my Dark Angels verses 2 of the boy's Orks & Dark Eldar teamed up. Although the Ork player has recently taken up Chaos Marines so it could change to Chaos & Dark Eldar, which will be awesome.

The crux of the scenario is a large Ork force has broken through and caught a DA rear guard that's securing relics/weapons of strategic import. The Dark Eldar will capitalise on the distraction and swoop in automatically on turn 2 (the whole army) to attack the DA on the flank.

I'll have 5,000 points of green, black & bone to play with and am planning on using it all. One of the rules for our scenario is that roughly 50% of the DA will need to be held in reserve which has basically led my list building to commit ~2,500 points to greenwing (demi-co with tanks & dreads) and the remaining 2,500 points split between a large flanking RWSF and a 3 squad DWRF coming in turn 3 in a last bid to hold key objectives.

Hopefully we'll play it soon, I plan to do a write up about it and post on here, although one of the boys recently had their first borne so his availability has disappeared for now.

Can't wait though, it's going to be epic.

[aura_enchanted]

 

 

 

 

In a Tri - Wing List your Raven / Death Wing are always going to be backing up the Green Wing

Only if you insist on the green wing consisting of a demi company, which is attractive, but consumes tons of points. A CAD is probably better for tri-wing, the minimum is easier to satisfy, after which you can plug in whatever you want...like a dark talon or whatever.

No he's actually correct you always want your tri wings foundationary group to be your normal marines. They are the most sturdy platform to build on top of and serve as the metaphorical glue that holds the other two together. If you skimp out even in a CAD your throwing away consistency in favour of wild swings in your armies ability to be combat effective. Either being very good or pretty terrible. Foot marines are reliable, their limits are expected and can be planned upon, and their load outs benefit everyone around them

 

Your deathwing are far too flimsy. Their a dessert unit you take at the end of the meat and potatoes units too much of them is bad for your army an relying on them to hold up a mixed wing army is suicide. Their too one dimensional, their too clumsy to use on the table, and their too ham fisted (literally) to offer any help to anyone around them.

 

Bike marines of the ravenwing sound good on paper as a team to build a tri wing army upon but the problem is that the ravenwing can sit still and lack numbers. Ravenwing rely on their ability to go from place to place and be moving at light speed around the table putting in work to stop and sit in place, they also can't take hits like normal marines can and not wish they hadn't. When Ravens start dying their combat effectiveness drops down a bloody well. They also only really synergize with deathwing not their green brothers whom they all but could care less exist.

 

Ravenwing move quick and hit hard but can't stand up to rigid opposition, they just fall apart. And deathwing hit hard and can take a beating but struggle to be in a position to hit as hard as they can consistently or have answers to the right things.

 

Good old reliable Greenwing is how the trifecta come together and denying that is silly.

 

However the lions blade I feel is not the way to go about it. It limits army design for your green marines too much and denies you the ability to do things like take a venerable dreadnaught the way he should be taken, or the ability to take any kind of heavy support armour. You also don't get scout... You know those guys that are infinitely more useful then tactical marines.

[march10k]

 

 

 

 

In a Tri - Wing List your Raven / Death Wing are always going to be backing up the Green Wing

Only if you insist on the green wing consisting of a demi company, which is attractive, but consumes tons of points. A CAD is probably better for tri-wing, the minimum is easier to satisfy, after which you can plug in whatever you want...like a dark talon or whatever.

No he's actually correct you always want your tri wings foundationary group to be your normal marines. They are the most sturdy platform to build on top of and serve as the metaphorical glue that holds the other two together. If you skimp out even in a CAD your throwing away consistency in favour of wild swings in your armies ability to be combat effective. Either being very good or pretty terrible. Foot marines are reliable, their limits are expected and can be planned upon, and their load outs benefit everyone around them

 

Your deathwing are far too flimsy. Their a dessert unit you take at the end of the meat and potatoes units too much of them is bad for your army an relying on them to hold up a mixed wing army is suicide. Their too one dimensional, their too clumsy to use on the table, and their too ham fisted (literally) to offer any help to anyone around them.

 

Bike marines of the ravenwing sound good on paper as a team to build a tri wing army upon but the problem is that the ravenwing can sit still and lack numbers. Ravenwing rely on their ability to go from place to place and be moving at light speed around the table putting in work to stop and sit in place, they also can't take hits like normal marines can and not wish they hadn't. When Ravens start dying their combat effectiveness drops down a bloody well. They also only really synergize with deathwing not their green brothers whom they all but could care less exist.

 

Ravenwing move quick and hit hard but can't stand up to rigid opposition, they just fall apart. And deathwing hit hard and can take a beating but struggle to be in a position to hit as hard as they can consistently or have answers to the right things.

 

Good old reliable Greenwing is how the trifecta come together and denying that is silly.

 

However the lions blade I feel is not the way to go about it. It limits army design for your green marines too much and denies you the ability to do things like take a venerable dreadnaught the way he should be taken, or the ability to take any kind of heavy support armour. You also don't get scout... You know those guys that are infinitely more useful then tactical marines.

 

 

It really sounds like you're against deathwing as the basis of any list, not just a tri-wing list.  If that's the case, then we really don't have much to talk about.

 

My black/white list is based on deathwing, using a splash of ravenwing for telehomer support and QRF.  If that is successful (it is), and if my theoretical triwing list contains the same number of terminators, then my core hasn't changed at all.  I'm dropping land raiders for greenwing support.  What support?  Well, fifteen marines with four lascannons between them to squat on near objectives while the terminators assault far ones, plus the bike libby that the new codex no longer allows as part of my RWAS (only available in RWSF, CAD, and Lion's Blade now).  Comes in a smidge over 400 points, adding two OBSEC and one scoring unit, plus the character, as well as four lascannons spread across three units (making it harder to remove the capability) to my list.

 

 

If your starting point for considering triwing is an existing deathraven concept, it's illogical to throw that out and start from greenwing.  If you're already doing deathraven and are thinking about incorporating some battle company support, the logical starting point is to ask yourself why.  "Just because" isn't really a reason that will lead to a stronger list.  If you're doing it with competitiveness in mind, the greenwing elements need to bring a capability to the list that you don't get from RW/DW.  "Numbers" is valid, but weak.  The number of models added is offset by the models dropped to free the points, and further by the increased ease of killing tactical marines.   Only in the eyes of a cover-ignoring S7+ AP3 or better shot is a bike interchangeable with a suit of power armor.  Ideally, you will add green with an eye towards some otherwise unavailable offensive capability.  In my case that is lascannons and a bike librarian.  I could have a TDA libby, but bitter experience has shown that the librarian won't be doing much with his powers if he's trapped in melee.