Chapter colours in legion times

[Rob P]

I'm clutching at straws here a little, but are there are any sources for the various legion chapters adopting their own colours rather than the standard legion colours during The Great Crusade or the Heresy?

 

If not, is it conceivable that particular Captains could have? (i.e. foreshadowing of the split to chapters) 

[Legionary Pallas]

Sure, you could justify this through a number of ways.

 

For starters, a personal honor granted to the captain, so he could change his companies scheme to match in recognition of excellence. 

 

Not "clutching at straws" at all, in fact I think it's a rather good idea.

[Kriegriss]

I think most people would agree that individual and chapter heraldry often appears on the non legion iconography shoulder plate

[Skalpynock]

Initially, the different chapters of the Warborn had vastly divergent iconography from one another, the Aurorans having green pauldrons and the Nemesis black gauntlets, midnight-blue helms, and skulls in scales as their heraldry. But by the time Guilliman came, these were reduced to mere pauldron trims for the first, and small markings on the Destroyer plate of the latter.

[Legionary Pallas]

I think most people would agree that individual and chapter heraldry often appears on the non legion iconography shoulder plate

I think he means their colour scheme not chapter badges or heraldry.

[Rob P]

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of colour schemes than livery.

 

If it is permissible, I wonder if the more divergent the more distant from their primarch? It would probably fit quite well with the shattered legions as they re-define themselves.

 

I just can't think of an example in any of the books.

[Legionary Pallas]

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of colour schemes than livery.

 

If it is permissible, I wonder if the more divergent the more distant from their primarch? It would probably fit quite well with the shattered legions as they re-define themselves.

 

I just can't think of an example in any of the books.

While I can't help about the books, I'll do everything I can to help with colour schemes & such.

 

Their scheme changing as they become more distant to the rest of their legion is a good way to explain it, or alternatively it could be a distinction or award granted to them by their Primarch.

[Marshal Rohr]

Chapter symbols are more common than full color schemes, though I'm a huge fan of the way people can integrate chapter iconography into legions. It's very characterful.

[Spinsanity]

You might be onto something here, with the Shattered Legions link... Looking at the Iron Hands second founding chapters, none of the known ones has a scheme that in any way looks like the IH's one, whereas the Red Talons look quite alot like one of the Legion Clan's colors. One could possibly argue that following the shattering of the X, they could have already adopted their clan colors and ditched the black, if they wanted to paint their force that way (following a schism regarding the Keys, possibly)...

[Arkhanist]

During the Heresy, it's certainly plausible for individual companies/chapters to start diverging from the host legion. The legions themselves often changed scheme as a result of their primarch reunification and as a result of the heresy itself, and that won't have happened overnight.

 

Examples off the top of my head; 

Dark Angels switched from black to green as a result of the whole business with Luther; and I think Cypher was in green pre-betrayal (though that's possibly a screw-up on GW's part)

Salamanders switched to a lighter shade of green at some point; in Rogue Trader, they had a yellow/black camo scheme which has since been quietly forgotten.

Blood Angels potentially went from metallic red/yellow (rogue trader style) to the current bright red/smarties helmet scheme

Space Wolves changed shade of grey

Ultramarines and the red helmets

Remnants of the Raven Guard were wearing a hotpotch of whatever they could salvage from the dead by the time they escaped Istvaan.

 

Traitor legions were a lot more changeable as a result of the heresy;

World Eaters of course changed from blue/white to white/blue when changed from the War Hounds, and ultimately to crimson/brass.

Alpha Legion could be any scheme you like in Crusade times given their unorthodox tactics, and they were still plenty sneaky after rejoining with their Primarch(s) so not always in the blue/green.

Thousand sons went red to blue

Emperor's children from purple to black & pink

Death Guard went from greyish cream to greyish cream with green trim and finally to um, mouldy.

Word Bearers went grey to dark red to bright red

Black Legion went white to green to black

Night Lords changed shade of blue, plus the whole gold and lightning thing.

 

Given the state of the shattered legions in general struggling to resupply, and escaped loyalists from the traitor legions in particular, I can definitely see individual groups of marines coalescing around the personal heraldry of a particular charismatic leader, especially if the legion have a history of keeping marks of techobarbarian/feral/gang groups they were recruited from. Maybe a hint back to their host legion in a minor colour or heraldry though.

[RandomMarine]

My ironhands have red shoulder pads the real life reason is so I can use my 30k toy with my 40k chapter. But the fluff reason is that they have stained their armour with the corrupt blood of traitors in penance for missing istavaan.

[Skalpynock]

Salamanders switched to a lighter shade of green at some point; in Rogue Trader, they had a yellow/black camo scheme which has since been quietly forgotten.

That one wasn't forgotten, it's referenced in the Assault on the Tempest Galleries exemplary battle in Masacre: "The XVIII Legion's power armour had been specially-modified for the extreme conditions they were to face, and had been camouflaged in striated patterns of sulphur yellow and sable black

[Arkhanist]

 

Salamanders switched to a lighter shade of green at some point; in Rogue Trader, they had a yellow/black camo scheme which has since been quietly forgotten.

That one wasn't forgotten, it's referenced in the Assault on the Tempest Galleries exemplary battle in Masacre: "The XVIII Legion's power armour had been specially-modified for the extreme conditions they were to face, and had been camouflaged in striated patterns of sulphur yellow and sable black

 

 

Hah, missed that one. I stand corrected! So that does always open up another option - a camouflage scheme pertinent to a particular warzone. One appropriate to where they were posted in at the time of the Heresy, or they didn't have time to repaint from, rushing back from when they were caught up in the fighting. 40K Codex marines are more averse to it, but it was a lot more common in Rogue Trader times so makes sense it would be more common in Crusade/Heresy times.

 

[Rob P]

I'm thinking of doing Dark Angels in Angels of Absolution colours but thinking of how to justify it.

 

I've not completely got my head around how to do it because I want to turn it into a mainstream force (as opposed to a fringe company) with Corswain and The Lion in a couple of years when they get minis and a book.

[Doctor Perils]

I'm clutching at straws here a little, but are there are any sources for the various legion chapters adopting their own colours rather than the standard legion colours during The Great Crusade or the Heresy?

 

If not, is it conceivable that particular Captains could have? (i.e. foreshadowing of the split to chapters) 

 

Whereas I heartily encourage having as much creativity as possible when choosing how to paint your legion force (throne knows it's hard), I'd be reluctant to do a wildly different scheme from the Legions: though its more complicated, I often find it far more interesting to see how certain colours/heraldry have been integrated into the larger Legion schemes, making a cohesive whole when viewed alongside other forces of the same Legion, yet having its own flair of independency. Not only is it interesting to see it in colour format, it is also interesting to see a symbolism behind specific heraldry in fluff terms: Thiel's red helms to mark those at Calth, the scales of the Nemesis chapter because of a hightened sense of Justice...

 

For the fluff reasoning:

In the case of Dark Angels with Angels of Absolution colour scheme, or elements of the Angels of Absolution scheme, their is obviously precedence (or postcedence ?), so a certain historical continuity in the scheme might be created. In the 41st millenium the AoA believe their sins to be expunged. Perhaps this belief could stem from their actions during the Horus Heresy, under your guidance ? Perhaps they fought alongside ex-Luna Wolves bearing the old legion heraldry of white, and the Dark Angels chose to take elements like this ? Otherwise, they might have fought during a particularly gruelling campaign where their paint was scorched bone-white, and they now choose to take elements of the same colour to remember their fallen comrades on that world ?

 

For the colour scheme choice:

I'd advise not going full bone white, as they might look quite weird alongside the Lion, Luther and/or Corswain in full black. Perhaps both pauldrons in bone white, with the winged sword in black or red could look striking enough for them to have enough visual identity of their own, yet be able to represent both Dark Angels in the 31th Millenium and elite Angels of Absolution in the 41st Millenium ?

[Father Mehman]

I remember a story in which some Terran Death Guard, and even a few Barbarusans, went back to their original colours which were incorrectly described above. The were the Dusk Raiders, way back in time, and they stood for something different- that is what these marines were trying to show. They painted their right arms red as a symbol that they were the Red Right Hand of the Emperor and their armour was cleaned and painted Storm Grey as opposed to the pure ceramite and jade green of their current accepted panoply of war.

 

Then they were sent to the surface of Istvaan III.

 

That's just one story of colours adorning armour. I can't recall if that story is found in Flight of the Eisenstein or one of the three original Heresy Books by Black Library books, so no luck there. I'm not sure why that came to mind but there's you another story for your brain bank.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Angels of Absolution sounds like something arguably destroyer-y.

 

They could be a select detachment serving censure and seeking absolution and atonement in combat. Including a significant ish Destroyer detachment, but wearing bonewhite because it bleaches their armour could be a sign.

 

Rather than having the entire detachment in it, taking bits of absolution colour scheme and applying it to certain parts of the models in reference to the severity and nature of their need to seek absolution. Perhaps the chest could show that their heart wasn't in the right place - perhaps a personal belief in place of an order, their helmet being one where they disagreed with a commanding officer to the extent it required censure, or their firing arm representative of a missed shot which caused the death of a significant individual within the legion.

 

The most serious, those whose bodies are entirely bone white are transferred into destroyer companies.

 

There could be some normal Dark Angels used there as well to represent the Angels of Absolution aiding an embattled detachment of the main legion.

 

To be figurative, an angels wrath Rite would be pretty appropriate. Ish.

[Halandaar]

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140411234646/warhammer40k/images/4/4f/IF_Legion_Assault_Legionary.jpg

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

[noigrim]

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140411234646/warhammer40k/images/4/4f/IF_Legion_Assault_Legionary.jpg

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

As long as you retain the pauldrons's original legion colour

[Halandaar]

 

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

<Snip>

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

As long as you retain the pauldrons's original legion colour

 

There could be some quite awesome schemes which are based on 2nd founding Chapters but with visual links to the main legion scheme.

[Slips]

 

 

 

 

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

<Snip>

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

As long as you retain the pauldrons's original legion colour

There could be some quite awesome schemes which are based on 2nd founding Chapters but with visual links to the main legion scheme.

Thing about that scheme is its not the Templar Colors, its the legion Veteran colors in general.

[Halandaar]

 

 

 

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

<Snip>

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

As long as you retain the pauldrons's original legion colour

There could be some quite awesome schemes which are based on 2nd founding Chapters but with visual links to the main legion scheme.

Thing about that scheme is its not the Templar Colors, its the legion Veteran colors in general.

 

 

Well, I guess my point is that a colour scheme exists within the legion which goes on to inspire the chapter colours for a 2nd founding chapter, regardless of what it refers to organisation wise. We don't know that there isn't a company of Ultramarines who wear white during the Heresy, who end up inspiring the colours of the Praetors of Orpheus, for example.

[Legionary Pallas]

The idea that a 30k company is the predecessor for a 40k chapter is great, you could even try to do something with later founding chapters too if you are feeling adventurous. I was throwing around some ideas about geneseed experiments in 30k that would become the base for some cursed founding chapter's geneseed, it's a stretch to go that far though.

[Slips]

 

 

 

 

 

Do you mean stuff like this?

 

<Snip>

 

The Imperial Fists already had Templar Brethren during the heresy, sporting the black armour you now associate with the Black Templars. I may be wrong here, but I think you can use that as FW-approved justification to paint your legionnaires in alternative chapter colours.

As long as you retain the pauldrons's original legion colour

There could be some quite awesome schemes which are based on 2nd founding Chapters but with visual links to the main legion scheme.

Thing about that scheme is its not the Templar Colors, its the legion Veteran colors in general.

Well, I guess my point is that a colour scheme exists within the legion which goes on to inspire the chapter colours for a 2nd founding chapter, regardless of what it refers to organisation wise. We don't know that there isn't a company of Ultramarines who wear white during the Heresy, who end up inspiring the colours of the Praetors of Orpheus, for example.

There are, however, examples for the Novamarines, Aurora, Iron Snakes (potentially) and a few others across the HH books and FW Books.

 

The Aurora being the 4th UM chapter (iirc) and being known for the green of their heraldry and particular specialization.

 

The Novamarines for the companies captain being awarded the right to wear his personal Heraldry (the quartered blue and white) in recognition for his service bu Guilliman and the Lion.

[Rob P]

Thanks for the ideas guys. I'll have to think a bit more on this.