Kharybdis claw tactics

[depthcharge12]

So I think this fat pod needs another fresh look at it and how it can be useful in a grav/Spartan dominated meta. I've been considering taking one for a 10 man terminator unit or 20 man despoiler squad.

 

I understand you're all screaming in your head right now at me: "But Spartans are the be all, end all assault transport!!!" And I understand that as I run one too, but they're becoming stale and people are learning ways to deal with them effectively.

 

As for weaponry, sure you don't get quad lascannons (which are amazing), but you'd be moving 12" a turn and snap shooting one anyway. With the 60 points you save, you can buy any type of rapier carriage, some more units/upgrades, or any number of other things. Plus, if you're enemy manages to kill your Kharbydis, you'll feel better off having not dumped all those points into the Spartan. Odds are that you'll have much better placement with it as well with deep strike, internal guidance, and the ability to flat out.

 

As an extra way to rub in salt, you can deploy behind or out of traverse range for grav platforms with the pod and unleash 10 S6 twin linked pinning shots. Since you arrive on the flyer base, all missiles are aiming at the same spot :) or you can aim them elsewhere, but they're probably better when focused.

 

What are your thoughts?

[GreyCrow]

It's really a hard topic but it's good to force oneself to think about this unit !

 

One thing that I find poetic and maybe worth a tactical consideration is hinted at in its name. Kharybdis refers to Charybdis which was a mythical sea monster in ancient Greece what would swallow the ships that ventured too close to it. The myth had a complement of Scylla, a multiheaded monster that would snatch sailors passing by the home it made of itself on top of a rock. When passing in this area, the sailors would not be able to avoid both and had to choose one of two evils. Odysseus chose Scylla, because better to lose 6 men than drown the entire ship. This is the root of the idioma "between Charybdis and Scylla"

The fun part of the story is that actually both "monsters" have been identified as real places in the world. In the Strait of Messina between Calabria and Sicily, and at the narrowest points (about 2 miles of sea) you indeed have an occasional whirlpool that can still tip modern boats over, and on the other side you have the Sicilian city of Scilla which topography features a very high rock that has been the site of fortified outposts from where the locals would fight off naval piracy. And it is theorized that the bodysnatcher monster was in fact a representation of the defense systems (archers, ballistas, etc) of that fortification.

 

So, what's the point of this story ? Well, on top of sounding smart and entertain you, I think that the developpers are actually well educated and did not choose the name Kharybdis by accident (aside from the obvious similarities in visual design).

 

Where I think we can take inspiration from the myth and poems about Charybdis is that in order to be truly fearsome and effective, the Kharybdis needs a Scylla.

 

Picture this : When facing a Spartan Assault Tank full of mean Terminators, and a Kharybdis full of mean Terminators that is already in your lines, which one do you deal with first ? It forces the opponent to focus his anti-tank firepower, or not do much damage to both if he splits. In any case, he will not be able to deal with both effectively and will have to eat the contents of one of them guaranteed.

 

I don't really think that the Kharybdis Assault Claw as merits on its own due to being very fragile (heck a couple of Sicarans could blow it up !), but it and its content will cause rampage in the enemy's lines if not dealt with priority (because Turn 2 they're in your lines, while you can deal with a Spartan and force to spend its content spending an extra turn on foot).

It works even better when both are dropped on the same flank (with the Spartan being in the center but slightly off to one side).

[depthcharge12]

Interesting point, I remember reading the Odyssey and Jason and the Argonauts back in middle school back when everyone was reading the box car kids :P but enough of my swaggering.

 

I'm all for the hammer and anvil style of play, so I'd honestly run a few dreads or even an assault squad to squeeze your opponent into a pocket.

 

What do you think about the flame attack? I think it's too unwieldy to use when you land as you might mishap, but using it over some backfield units might be useful.

[GreyCrow]

Hehe, great read indeed :D I should reread it some times too, you might have given me a good idea here :P

 

On the topic of Hammer and Anvil it's always a good strategy, and I find it most effective when you have two equally threatening options against both of which you can't defend effectively so you have to take one.

Example : in my 40k meta, there is a Marine player that fields a Grav Cannon gunline in Rhinos (6 Tactical squads, 2 Devastators) in a Company (free transports) with 2 Ironclads in Pod. In the case of his army, either you use your anti-tank to deal with the Ironclads that dropped or either you deal with the Rhinos to get to the Grav Cannons. In both cases, you're still going to have to take the punch from either group of units ;)

 

I would totally go for another mechanized unit over infantry personally, so that he has to dedicate his entire tank firepower to either of them :) 3-6 Dreadnoughts could work I feel, but that's expensive !

[Caillum]

Realistically, you're saving 120 points over a Spartan, as everyone will take AC and a flare shield. You lose 5 models worth of transport capacity, but gain infinitely more manoeuvrability and, in many ways, more survivability - being in Hover mode when it arrives gives it, at minimum, a 4+ Jink save.

 

It obviously meshes perfectly with an Orbital Assault army, or at least a Drop Pod Assault-heavy army. Note that unlike the Dreadclaw, it DOES have Inertial Guidance System, so it has the best of both worlds - it won't hit terrain/units and it can move to an optimal location! It will net you a Turn 2 Assault quiet comfortably, especially when it is kept safe with the Terror Assault "Cover of Darkness" Stealth buff (or simply intervening terrain/units).

 

As mentioned in the Leviathan thread, they can be a DT for them now! For Terror Assault, Decapitation Strike and Dark Brethren lists, this is a nice 2-for-1 on their single Heavy Support slot.

 

Plus the model is amazing, massive and cooler than cool! :)

[depthcharge12]

That's an awesome idea Callium! I didn't think of it for the NL RoW!!!

 

I do think that a 20 man despoiler squad can do some good in the pod and be a giant, mobile assault unit. I do think it makes an ideal transport for a 10 man terminator unit though ;)

[Slips]

Yup.

 

The Flame Blast is also a nice secondary thing for dealing with Horde Armies that are liable to Tarpit too.

 

Oh, 50 Levies? How about I just Drop In, burninate some fools then fly around burninating the rest before disgorging the murdermachine that resides inside.

[depthcharge12]

I'm thinking of a Dreadwing list with two 10 man despoilers in dreadclaws and a 10 man terminator squad in a Kharybdis :D I wanted to stick a plasma squad or destroyer squad in a dreadclaw too, but I have jetbikes in my list that I love. Oh, and there's a leviathan in a dread drop pod ;)

 

DREAD PODS FOR DAYYYZZZ!!!!

[GreyCrow]

Regarding the Flame attacks (forgot to reply in my previous post !) and the Melta Ram and even the Launchers, they're nice when you don't know what else to do with the Claw.

 

That said, they're so weak, so low ap and so low volume of fire that you can't base the tactics around that.

Not even as an up side scenario "Oh, but if I place it here, I can Flame the rear Armour..." :P

 

Its main draw is the ability to confer Deep Strike to a 20 man unit for 13 points a piece. It's also equivalent to playing 2 Dreadclaws for 2 squads of 10 (in case of Tacticals : 250 + 260 for 510 versus 150 + 150 + 200 for 500).

But to me the main draw is really bringing Terminators. Nothing allows the to Deep Strike t1 in a vehicle with decent resilience. (With Nightfighting on for a 3+ Jink, it takes about 34 Lascannon shots to kill it).

 

But hey Depth, if you want to be even dirtier, it's Dirty Crow Combo time !

So, drop a Dreadnought and his Pod right in between the main anti tank firepower of the enemy and your Kharybdis and enjoy Shrouded for your 2+ jink.

Trust me, the tears of the enemy are salty, they're very sweet :p

On top of that, you can still move 6" + 6" + 2d6 charge, so you only need to be 18" from the enemy target, so plenty of room for the DreadPod. Just make sure you deep strike it before the Kharybdis so you know from where you will have cover (and flat out if needed).

Finally, a Recon Squad with Nuncio-Vox and a Rhino might help to secure the scatter.

(And there is the Dreadnought you wanted by the way !)

[helterskelter]

How much would both those units cost though? I'm expecting over the 1k mark for running the full mythology lineup? It seems like it would only really see viability in 3k lists as it is a brutal tactic that needs proper reinforcing

[GreyCrow]

How much would both those units cost though? I'm expecting over the 1k mark for running the full mythology lineup? It seems like it would only really see viability in 3k lists as it is a brutal tactic that needs proper reinforcing

If you go with Tacticals in the mythology lineup it'd be around 1000 points.

But really, I feel points will be better spend by placing expensive units in these transports. You're already paying premium points for a large transport, might as well put premium units in it

So yeah, full 2 x 10 Terminators with decent gear will set you back about 1500 points (around 500 per squad + 500 for the two transports), so you're definitely right when you say it's reserved for 3000+ points lists. At that point level you're going to spend probably another 1000 points on Troops, and the last 500 points on HQ + 350 points of another support unit.

I'm thinking Terminators because it's the most rounded assault unit in melee in terms of resilience vs killing power, but other specialty assault squads could be interesting as well.

But just picture this : World Eaters Berserker Assault as this point level with 2 squads of 10 Terminators with Power Fists or Lightning Claws. Tee Hee :D

[Slips]

Play the Greek Mythical Beast List.

 

I made this on the quick and mostly for giggles. Its 5k Points and has like, 36 Bodies? Lol?

 

But hey, whatever.

 

+++ Mythical Beasts, yo (5000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (5000pts) ++

 

+ HQ (490pts) +

 

Armillus Dynat (490pts)

··Legion Command Squad [5x Combat Shield, 4x Combi-bolter, 4x Legion Space Marine Chosen, Melta Bombs, 2x Power Fist, 3x Power Weapon]

··Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion]

 

+ Troops (1950pts) +

 

Lernaen Terminator Squad (540pts) [2x Chainfist, 9x Lernean Terminator, 2x Plasma Blaster, 7x Power Fist]

··Harrower [Master-crafted weapon, Power Dagger, Power Fist, Venom Sphere Harness]

 

Lernaen Terminator Squad (540pts) [2x Chainfist, 9x Lernean Terminator, 2x Plasma Blaster, 7x Power Fist]

··Harrower [Master-crafted weapon, Power Dagger, Power Fist, Venom Sphere Harness]

 

Lernaen Terminator Squad (870pts) [2x Chainfist, 9x Lernean Terminator, 2x Plasma Blaster, 5x Power Fist]

··Harrower [Master-crafted weapon, Power Dagger, Power Fist, Venom Sphere Harness]

··Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

 

+ Elites (225pts) +

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (225pts)

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

··Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Graviton Cannon]

 

+ Fast Attack (570pts) +

 

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts)

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (235pts) [battle Servitor Control, Ground-tracking Auguries, Phosphex bomb cluster, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (235pts) [battle Servitor Control, Ground-tracking Auguries, Phosphex bomb cluster, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

+ Heavy Support (1115pts) +

 

Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts)

 

Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts)

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon (595pts)

··Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Armoured Ceramite, Grav-flux Bombard, Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw, Phosphex Discharger, 2x Twin-linked Volkite Caliver]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [XX: Alpha Legion]

 

+ Lord of War (650pts) +

 

Legion Glaive Special Weapons Tank (650pts) [Armoured Ceramite]

 

4 Pods means 2 Down on T1 and 2 on T2. Ya got a Spartan and a Glaive to do stuff. A Leviathan in a Kharybdis if only to fit the theme. 2 Primaris' To blow stuff up and Graviton Cannons because why not?

 

If you're up against Levy Spam, just burninate them with the Glaive and Kharybdis' Heat Blasts.

 

And a lot of potentially unnecessary upgrades.

[Athrawes]

Depth, the list certainly look fun. Dreadclaws, Levi in dread pod, and kharybdis, I assume you deploy Rapiers on the board right? But thats kind of the problem as well, I'm wondering how well this list would do against itself, and I think you know why I'm asking. It's basically a mirror of the orbital assault (but not orbital assault list) I'm running in the winter Campaign.

 

This is not about copying, but since I'm your most frequent/only opponent, I'm just wondering how two nearly Identical lists of this type would play out against one another, and I think It might come down to who gets first turn, which is a bit boring.

 

That said, I like the Kharybdis, as the model is gorgeous. Additionally, like the Caestus, it seems like a solid alternative for land raiders or spartans to get a terminator unit or a big kill squad where it needs to go.

[GreyCrow]

Depth, the list certainly look fun. Dreadclaws, Levi in dread pod, and kharybdis, I assume you deploy Rapiers on the board right? But thats kind of the problem as well, I'm wondering how well this list would do against itself, and I think you know why I'm asking. It's basically a mirror of the orbital assault (but not orbital assault list) I'm running in the winter Campaign.

 

This is not about copying, but since I'm your most frequent/only opponent, I'm just wondering how two nearly Identical lists of this type would play out against one another, and I think It might come down to who gets first turn, which is a bit boring.

 

Don't forget that you can always choose to reserve part of your army to mitigate the effect of a Drop Pod Assault ;)

[depthcharge12]

Depth, the list certainly look fun. Dreadclaws, Levi in dread pod, and kharybdis, I assume you deploy Rapiers on the board right? But thats kind of the problem as well, I'm wondering how well this list would do against itself, and I think you know why I'm asking. It's basically a mirror of the orbital assault (but not orbital assault list) I'm running in the winter Campaign.

 

This is not about copying, but since I'm your most frequent/only opponent, I'm just wondering how two nearly Identical lists of this type would play out against one another, and I think It might come down to who gets first turn, which is a bit boring.

 

That said, I like the Kharybdis, as the model is gorgeous. Additionally, like the Caestus, it seems like a solid alternative for land raiders or spartans to get a terminator unit or a big kill squad where it needs to go.

I was worried that they'd look identical, but I'm trying to not use the Spartan as a crutch ;) I might hold off on the dreadclaws and limit myself to the Kharybdis and dread drop pod for now just so it doesn't become a drop pod off.

[Athrawes]

Well, don't be too hasty, I was just wondering how that potential list matchup would do against one another.

 

I didn't bring that point up because i wanted you to change your list, collect the army you think is cool, just when considering the tactics of that list, (Since my list is your regular adversary) play this list in your head against mine.

 

Since both lists have a moderate fire base on the table and the rest are coming on Drop assault/reserves, it seems like who ever goes first and gets their first turn drop pods in the enemies back field, can overwhelm their opponents firebase.

 

At least, that's my very general thought on how that game would play out, but i could be very wrong. 

[depthcharge12]

Oh I agree :) I'm thinking of turning my army list on its head. I want a mobile, hard hitting army with less static emplacements. I know you don't have your culverin squad anymore, but they could beat me in any shooting match I decided to throw.

 

Unfortunately our lists are abut close, but I have my terminators that I love since I don't have any specialty units yet, and I want to run them in something other than a Spartan.

[Fangbanger]

Just remember really you want 3 pods so you can guarantee 2 in turn 1....