Garro up on Forgeworld!

[Nomus Sardauk]

I Want that head. My god, that is a nice head sculpt.

 

[Quixus]

He can join any Legion, yes! Only stipulation is that they must be "Loyalists", so no Mortarion, Eidolon, Red Butchers, etc. in the army with him.

Is there a rule that tells us which units make an army automatically a traitor army?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Sanguis, you have no idea how long i've been looking for a gif for phrasing.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

He can join any Legion, yes! Only stipulation is that they must be "Loyalists", so no Mortarion, Eidolon, Red Butchers, etc. in the army with him.

Is there a rule that tells us which units make an army automatically a traitor army?

Technically "no", it's more or less player opinion. Especially since a Pre-Heresy Death Guard should have the option to have Mortarion and Garro.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

He can join any Legion, yes! Only stipulation is that they must be "Loyalists", so no Mortarion, Eidolon, Red Butchers, etc. in the army with him.

Is there a rule that tells us which units make an army automatically a traitor army?

Technically "no", it's more or less player opinion. Especially since a Pre-Heresy Death Guard should have the option to have Mortarion and Garro.

 

 

Well technically, the answer is yes, there is a rule:

 

"Unless specified by a particular mission, all of the units which are chosen as part of the Primary and Lords of War Detachments must be from the same army list and same Faction (in the case of a Space Marine Legion, they must also have the same version of the Legiones Astartes special rule as well where this is relevant)." (pg.159 of tempest)

 

Anything with a traitor or loyalist stamp is exclusive to that faction. Now if you want to make a pre-heresy army that's all fine and dandy, but a lot of the loyalist characters from traitor factions have special rules that are based on the heresy and their legions turning. Using Garro as an example he wouldn't have his bolter, or his deepstrike, or his secret mission, or his get back up, or his PE, or possibly even artificer armour. So basically, an entirely different character

[Kol Saresk]

Which, as I said, ultimately makes it player decision since the player decides in what era the army is in.

 

Now granted, some things like Noise Marines, Red Butchers, Gal Vorbak, Mal Ghara, Diabolists and Lorgar Transcendant should automatically dictate Traitor armies because those units only came into being after Istvaan V and were only used by Traitor Marines. But there is nothing that says "this army is Traitor" or "this army is Loyalist" except for player decidion unless there is a new rule in Tempest you would like to quote?

 

Meaning, I can run a Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Army with Abaddon, Horus, Loken and Maloghurst if I so desired. Because they are all part of the same faction(Legiones Astartes) and they all have the same Legiones Astartes rule, which is the requirement you posted. The only way they can't go together is if I say this is a Loyalist or Traitor army, in which case I would then have to either give the Traitors or Loken, respectively.

 

As for Garro, eh. Maybe, maybe not. Secret Mission is really the only that has to go.

[DuskRaider]

Other than Oath of Moment, his Deep Strike, and the Emperor Protects crap, he's the same as he was Pre-Heresy. His armour predates the Heresy. His Bolter does as well, from what I'm aware. As does Libertas. So... take away the Oath of Moment rule, his Deep Strike (which I guess is even debatable, he's a Commander of thousands of Marines and one of the sacred 3 Captains), and his rule to come back after losing his last wound. With the exception of some Word Bearers options (Gal Vorbak, Mara Ghal, Zardu Layak, arguably Erebus & Kor Phaeron) and Kakophoni Marines, they're all pretty much the same as Great Crusade era.

[1000 Sons]

One does not just stop being Death Guard, he's still got the phosphex in his veins.

[GhostMalone]

Will buy garro just to be competitive as :cuss now

[rendingon1+]

I wonder what to excpect from the Agent of the Warmster. Are there any rumours?

[1ncarnadine]

I wonder what to excpect from the Agent of the Warmster. Are there any rumours?

 

I guess this would be like the team he had out and about in Tallarn: Ironclad? He doesn't seem to have an elite organization like the Knights Errant, but he does have "emissaries" who he trusts to enforce his will. It'll be interesting to see what else FW comes up with.

[Kol Saresk]

Other than Oath of Moment, his Deep Strike, and the Emperor Protects crap, he's the same as he was Pre-Heresy. His armour predates the Heresy. His Bolter does as well, from what I'm aware. As does Libertas. So... take away the Oath of Moment rule, his Deep Strike (which I guess is even debatable, he's a Commander of thousands of Marines and one of the sacred 3 Captains), and his rule to come back after losing his last wound. With the exception of some Word Bearers options (Gal Vorbak, Mara Ghal, Zardu Layak, arguably Erebus & Kor Phaeron) and Kakophoni Marines, they're all pretty much the same as Great Crusade era.

Over one thousand Marines. He fully commanded one seventh of the entire Death Guard Legion IIRC.

[DuskRaider]

Other than Oath of Moment, his Deep Strike, and the Emperor Protects crap, he's the same as he was Pre-Heresy. His armour predates the Heresy. His Bolter does as well, from what I'm aware. As does Libertas. So... take away the Oath of Moment rule, his Deep Strike (which I guess is even debatable, he's a Commander of thousands of Marines and one of the sacred 3 Captains), and his rule to come back after losing his last wound. With the exception of some Word Bearers options (Gal Vorbak, Mara Ghal, Zardu Layak, arguably Erebus & Kor Phaeron) and Kakophoni Marines, they're all pretty much the same as Great Crusade era.

Over one thousand Marines. He fully commanded one seventh of the entire Death Guard Legion IIRC.

Hence the term "thousands". Close to 70,000.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Will buy garro just to be competitive as now

You'll be waiting a while for the meta to change then.

[Kol Saresk]

I might have missed the s. :P

[SkimaskMohawk]

Which, as I said, ultimately makes it player decision since the player decides in what era the army is in.

 

Well the question was if there was rules that dictated what goes where. You said no, the answer is yes.

 

 

Now granted, some things like Noise Marines, Red Butchers, Gal Vorbak, Mal Ghara, Diabolists and Lorgar Transcendant should automatically dictate Traitor armies because those units only came into being after Istvaan V and were only used by Traitor Marines. But there is nothing that says "this army is Traitor" or "this army is Loyalist" except for player decidion unless there is a new rule in Tempest you would like to quote?

 

I quoted the relevant rules part in Tempest already, page number and everything.

 

 

 

Meaning, I can run a Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Army with Abaddon, Horus, Loken and Maloghurst if I so desired. Because they are all part of the same faction(Legiones Astartes) and they all have the same Legiones Astartes rule, which is the requirement you posted. The only way they can't go together is if I say this is a Loyalist or Traitor army, in which case I would then have to either give the Traitors or Loken, respectively.

 

Oh, I see where you're going wrong. You think the Legions are Factions. They're not. I suggest acquiring Tempest before trying to debate, but anyways here's the Faction rules in tempest that go together with what I previously quoted:

 

"Factions in the Age of Darkness

The Factions system found in the Warhammer 4o,ooo rule book is not used in conjunction with the Battles in the Age of Darkness expansion. Instead, during the Horus Heresy there are in effect only two Factions: Loyalist and Traitor, and an army's forces must be chosen from one or the other of these (but never both). In the various Age of Darkness army lists, certain characters and units will either be specified in their text or are marked with either an Aquila (Loyalist) or the Eye of Horus (Traitors), meaning that they can only be chosen by armies of that Faction. If a character or unit is shown without one of these marks or specification, they may be selected by either Faction."  (pg.160 of Tempest)

 

So your hypothetical army couldn't have Loken as he's loyalist while the rest are traitors

 

 

 

As for Garro, eh. Maybe, maybe not. Secret Mission is really the only that has to go.

Other than Oath of Moment, his Deep Strike, and the Emperor Protects crap, he's the same as he was Pre-Heresy. His armour predates the Heresy. His Bolter does as well, from what I'm aware. As does Libertas. So... take away the Oath of Moment rule, his Deep Strike (which I guess is even debatable, he's a Commander of thousands of Marines and one of the sacred 3 Captains), and his rule to come back after losing his last wound. With the exception of some Word Bearers options (Gal Vorbak, Mara Ghal, Zardu Layak, arguably Erebus & Kor Phaeron) and Kakophoni Marines, they're all pretty much the same as Great Crusade era.

 

I'll answer both of these together as they're both pretty much the same, albeit one of you seems to have actually read the pdf.

 

We know his eagle cuirass is really old. His original suit may have predated the heresy as well, but from the description of his bolter it says:

 

"The Knights-Errant have been outfitted with the finest crafted panoply of arms and armour that the Sigillite’s household can procure, the plain grey heraldry belying the peerless quality of the underlying workmanship"

 

Certainly his armour is very unique and shares more in common with mkIV than any of the earlier marks. The engravings and the Sigillite's heraldry are also an indication that it might not be his original armour.

 

The bolter is clearly new as that's where the description is from.

 

Preferred Enemy has to go, as there were no such things as Traitors.

 

Falsehood is out too, as;

1. it's secret agent/high Terran office tech not available to the legions

2. was given to him after the whole heresy thing

3. only affects garro and not squads he joins, so him commanding guys doesn't mean anything (if the argument is he gets special gear then I'll point you back to 1)

 

So effectively you have a character who wants to fight people in 3+ armour in challenges and can tank for his squad. Fluffy considering he's Death Guard, but certainly not worth 175 pts 

[Kol Saresk]

Well, in that case both of us are also wrong about having Pre-Heresy armies since anything an Eye of Horus is not recognized as an Imperial army. If we want to be pedantic at any rate. Which you are.

 

I just realized something funny, Loken is modelled with an Eye of Horus. So according to that, Loken is a Traitor. But according to Betrayal, he has to be a Loyalist. Boy, quote a conundrum. -_-

 

EDIT: Should I point out the sarcasm? Just in case?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, in that case both of us are also wrong about having Pre-Heresy armies since anything an Eye of Horus is not recognized as an Imperial army. If we want to be pedantic at any rate. Which you are.

I just realized something funny, Loken is modelled with an Eye of Horus. So according to that, Loken is a Traitor. But according to Betrayal, he has to be a Loyalist. Boy, quote a conundrum.

I get that you're being pithy because you're wrong but can you stop making these inaccurate statements?

First, I never said a Pre-Hersey army was allowed rules wise, I said I was fine if people wanted to do it, but there's complications with some characters who would need adjustment.

Second, there's no "Imperial" designation. There's Traitor and Loyalist.

Third, the rules you seem to have a hard time reading say "In the various Age of Darkness army lists, certain characters and units will either be specified in their text or are marked "

[Kol Saresk]

So yes, I did have to point out the sarcasm. And yes, you do have a problem with Pre-Heresy armies. Glad we have that settled.

[Kol Saresk]

Here, how will this work for you SkimaskMohawk, I have an army with a Praetor, some Assault Marines and Jetbikes. Is it Traitor or Loyalist?

[depthcharge12]

Gentlemen, there's no need to be snide or get your panties in a bunch :P it's a game with little plastic men...

[GhostMalone]

Will buy garro just to be competitive as now

You'll be waiting a while for the meta to change then.

My meta currently consists of Bac pride lists so I'm sure I can take it

[DuskRaider]

 

 

 

 

As for Garro, eh. Maybe, maybe not. Secret Mission is really the only that has to go.

Other than Oath of Moment, his Deep Strike, and the Emperor Protects crap, he's the same as he was Pre-Heresy. His armour predates the Heresy. His Bolter does as well, from what I'm aware. As does Libertas. So... take away the Oath of Moment rule, his Deep Strike (which I guess is even debatable, he's a Commander of thousands of Marines and one of the sacred 3 Captains), and his rule to come back after losing his last wound. With the exception of some Word Bearers options (Gal Vorbak, Mara Ghal, Zardu Layak, arguably Erebus & Kor Phaeron) and Kakophoni Marines, they're all pretty much the same as Great Crusade era.

 

I'll answer both of these together as they're both pretty much the same, albeit one of you seems to have actually read the pdf.

 

We know his eagle cuirass is really old. His original suit may have predated the heresy as well, but from the description of his bolter it says:

 

"The Knights-Errant have been outfitted with the finest crafted panoply of arms and armour that the Sigillite’s household can procure, the plain grey heraldry belying the peerless quality of the underlying workmanship"

 

Certainly his armour is very unique and shares more in common with mkIV than any of the earlier marks. The engravings and the Sigillite's heraldry are also an indication that it might not be his original armour.

 

The bolter is clearly new as that's where the description is from.

 

Preferred Enemy has to go, as there were no such things as Traitors.

 

Falsehood is out too, as;

1. it's secret agent/high Terran office tech not available to the legions

2. was given to him after the whole heresy thing

3. only affects garro and not squads he joins, so him commanding guys doesn't mean anything (if the argument is he gets special gear then I'll point you back to 1)

 

So effectively you have a character who wants to fight people in 3+ armour in challenges and can tank for his squad. Fluffy considering he's Death Guard, but certainly not worth 175 pts 

 

 

I never noticed the spiel about his Bolter. Fair enough I suppose, although I'd keep the rules for it anyhow for poos and giggles. In any case, it doesn't say the Bolter WAS made by the Sigilite, simply says Knights Errant had the best stuff. Which brings me to the next thing... His armour is definitely Pre-Heresy, it was actually mentioned in Flight of the Eisenstein while they were still loyal, and I believe it goes back to when he was first made Battle-Captain of the 7th Grand Company. I had forgotten about Preferred Enemy Traitors, that definitely has to go. I suppose Falsehood wouldn't stay, although the technology to Teleport is well known and used in various Legions. Maybe he needs a points reduction in a Great Crusade army, then. I'd say he's not required to be the Warlord, but if he is he automatically gets the Child of Terra Warlord trait.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh I just meant that the armour he's currently wearing may not be the armour he was wearing in Flight. I agree about the warlord trait thing 

[DuskRaider]

I'm pretty sure it's the same armour, just devoid of Legion livery.