chosen40k Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Can anyone be kind enough to give an overview/pros-cons of each? I'm looking to get the Betrayal at Calth box as a start and can't decide between Dorn's Chosen and the Regents of Ultramar. Thanks guys! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Howdy! We have a thread for this :) it's at the top of the Age of Darkness forums. Can't miss it ;) Otherwise I suggest you read through the Imperial fist and ultramarine sections of the 1d4chan crusade Legion army list tactics article :) http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 "General" pros and cons: Imperial Fists + "Knight" Theme - Duty, Honour, Loyalty, Persistence + Among the better Legion rules (buffed Bolter BS, Tank Hunter Devastators) + Not played as much as others - Yellow armour is difficult to paint Ultramarines + "Roman Legion" Theme - Duty, Honour, Efficiency, Tactical + Relatively easy to paint - Among the weaker Legion rules (getting minor, situational bonuses) - Authors hate them - Players hate them (has mellowed a bit in the HH context) Army specs: - Imperial Fists - < VII > Advantages: +1 BS for all "Bolter" weaponry Heavy Support squads gain 'Tank Hunter' Characters in challenges can re-roll To-Hit rolls Models are stubborn when in cover/fortification Disadvantages: Characters must issue a challenge if possible In random length games, the opponent can decide that the full six truns are played Special formation/Rite of War: 'Phalanx Warder Squads' are Troops, all models with shields that are in btb with two friendly models with shields gain +1 Toughness (unless they just ran, charged or made a sweeping advance), charging models with shields gain the 'Hammer of Wrath' special rule. Must take Breacher Squads as compulsory Troops choices, force cannot use Deep Strike rules, cannot use more Elites and Fast Attack choices than Troops choices Special units: Templar Brethren: Decent HtH Veterans with WS 5, 2+ sv and 'Furious Charge'. Phalanx Warder Squad: Almost identical to regular Breacher Squads, but gain +1 Initiative when charged, as long as at least 5 models remain. - Ultramarines - < XIII > Advantages: A unit can re-roll shooting wound rolls of 1 and armour penetration rolls of 1 if their target has already been hit by another friendly unit that same shooting phase A charging unit that fails to reach their target must re-roll the charge distance if their target is already engaged with another friendly unit Units take Fear tests and Regrouping tests on Ld 10 Disadvantages: If all Ultramarines HQs are slain, the enemy gains +1 Victory Point If the Ultramarines' Warlord is killed, all units not accompanied by an Independent Character have to take an immediate pinning test Special formation/Rite of War: All units and Dreadnoughts benefit from one of the following three special rules each turn (same rule for all, chosen at beginning of each turn):- can re-roll Run distances - can make snap shots at BS 2 if remained stationary - gainst the Counter-attack special rule Must take a Master of SIgnal or a 'Damocles Command Rhno" as a second compulsory HQ choice, must take an additional compulsory Troops choices, force cannot use Deep Strike or Infiltration rules, cannot use more Tanks and Flyers total than Infantry unitsSpecial units: Invictarus Suzerain Squad: Fairly strong HtH Veterans with WS 5, 2+ sv and power axes that aren't 'Unwieldy'. They also give +1 Ld to nearby friendly units. Fulmentarus Terminator Strike squad: Terminators with BS 5, the entire squad can be equipped with Reaper autocannons or Cyclone-missile launchers. Locutarus Storm squad: Assault squad with 2+ Save and power swords. Damocles Command Rhino: Allows units to safely deep strike within 24", allows to add +1 or -1 to a reserve roll, substracts -1 from enemy deep strike mishap rolls, can coll down an orbital strike once per game (S8, AP 3, Lance, Large Blast) Edit: Correction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Imperial Fists+ Sigismund + Alexis Polux + Sigismund + Templars + Sigismund +- Dorn is more of an army buffer than a monster - You will have to accept and demand all challenges possible. Yes, here too.Oh, wait. + THE LAST ONE IS ACTUALLY A PLUS + Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 That pro/con list you posted made me happy inside, Legatus. So, so happy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 In Terms of the Primarchs they're both pretty good, but Guilliman probably trumps out Dorn for ease of use. But both are great - Guiilliman is more of a duelist against the other beefy enemies whereas Dorn will just mulch through terminators/2+, for some reason though he can't shoot his bolter and charge.... Like Guilliman can :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Just want to point out that the Damocles command Rhino isnt exclusive to the Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 I think Storm Shields and Teleportaion Transponders should definitely be added to IF advantages list. Especially TT - deep striking terminators are a big deal (you don't have to take Orbital Assault which, in my opinion, is huge). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 FISTS BABY all day long Fists. There's lots off Ultramarines running willy nilly around the 500 world's but we need more fists to man the walls at the fight that matters Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4237817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrick Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 i just went through the same debate, and what ultimately got me is, look at Guilliman's model... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4238098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosen40k Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Thanks for the reply guys! Just one more tidbit, which of the two would be better to start with using the Betrayal at Calth box? I'm thinking IF since they seem to like Terminators and Veterans (and PotL in general) more than the Ultramarines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4238234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Well, they're both pretty good from the box. But IF would probably be better due to the bolter accuracy, but then again due to thier tactics you're essentially as accurate with Ultras if a unit has :cuss at the enemy with all of thier guns. It's really up to you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4238288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Thanks for the reply guys! Just one more tidbit, which of the two would be better to start with using the Betrayal at Calth box? I'm thinking IF since they seem to like Terminators and Veterans (and PotL in general) more than the Ultramarines. I would argue that both fit the box set pretty well for POTL. For the Imperial Fists one nasty trick is to take veteran squads with heavy bolters and then give them the sniper special rule. You now have a squad of BS 5 snipers with heavy bolters. Put a rhino in the squad and your good to go. In regards to the terminators the fists have better vanilla terminators due giving them storm shields assualt cannons, and the rare ability to deepstrike, so they are meant to be the guys first into the breach basically. The Ultramarines on the other hand the Ultras have terminators who are essentially devastators who want to stay back, they also are a bit overcosted. The Ultramarines are a legion who primarily rely on the synergies of differing units, working together to achieve victory. With a Pride List it allows you to take better rhino squads than regular tactical squads. You have the rhino fire its bolter and then the squad inside can now fire off its weapons with a re roll, including your special weapons like say plasma guns who no longer suffer gets hot. Pride can work for the Ultras due to the generalist nature of the veterans which works well with their chapter tactics. Hope that helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4238808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'd collect Ultramarines, personally, though IF are certainly good. Ultramarines are certainly not one of the weaker Legions. With correct unit synergy and a good army list they are very effective, and their unique units and Primarch are excellent - far superior to IF, or most Legions for that matter. You don't have to build a Pride List. The Calth box-set is a great start to any kind of army. I suggest you get the Red Book and the Legion appropriate book so that you can plan ahead with how you want to build the force up. In Terms of the Primarchs they're both pretty good, but Guilliman probably trumps out Dorn for ease of use. But both are great - Guiilliman is more of a duelist against the other beefy enemies whereas Dorn will just mulch through terminators/2+, for some reason though he can't shoot his bolter and charge.... Like Guilliman can :/ Guilliman is hands down better, both as a force multiplier and as a combat character. i just went through the same debate, and what ultimately got me is, look at Guilliman's model... Take a look at my sig ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I would pick Ultramarines. Interlocking Tactics are awesome. 1) Fists have Disciplined Fire - +1 BS to all bolt shots is great but units with other weapons do not benefit from this rule. But do you really want to invest majority of your points in "bolter squads"? On the other hand all ultramarines units (with legiones astartes rule) benefit from Interlocking Tactics reroll to wound, no matter the weapon. 2) Disciplined Fire gives Heavy Support Squads Tank Hunters BUT Interlocking Tactics gives reroll to penetrate (which is Tank Hunters without reroll glanc to pen) to EVERY unit with legiones astartes: Ultramarines. So: missle launchers in veteran squads, melta squads, terminators with combi etc. Not to mention that Invictarus Suzerains are much better fighters (they also buff your units) then Templars and cheaper (if you choose to equip Templars with combt shields). You also get Fulmentarus temintators that are BS5 and every one of them can get cyclone missle launcher/autocannon, on top of that they also get nice special rule which grants them night vision (if squad number is 2), tank hunters (if squad number is 5) and -1 to target's cover save (if squad number is 8). Mayby expensive but (in my opinion) worth it. Oh, and your breachers can exchange their bolters for power swords for 5pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakai Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 OK, I haven't played 30K yet. I don't even have any of the books. But I'd like to make one point. A YELLOW army. You might be able to paint yellow well but I'm terrible at it. Fluffwise I prefer the fist and when completed I think they look better. I can't stand the Ultras but if those were my only two choices I'd be onto FW ordering Guilliman right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Good thing there are Black Imperial Fists :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Good thing there are Black Imperial Fists There are black Ultramarines, too! Problem is they're all on the surface of Calth... Chosen 40k, I'm choosing Imperial fists for you. You now play them. This was because you listed them first, so want to play them on a subconscious level. How does that make you feel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 It makes me feel like I'm talking to my psychologist :D. No but seriously if your having a hard time try flipping a coin. You'll find the true choice through that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I see there is a discussion here about Ultramarines vs Imperial Fists. Hmm. Has anyone brought up the Death Guard as an option yet ? Seriously though, paint one of each and see which one you like better. Or maybe you could proxy each Legion in a game and see which one works for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Do both. They are Sworn Brothers on the Age of Darkness Ally chart. Guilliman considered Dorn to be amongst the Dauntless 5 (other members include Sanguinus, Ferrus, and the only non-sworn brother: Russ). My view is that they complement each other quite nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4239914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakai Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Do both. They are Sworn Brothers on the Age of Darkness Ally chart. Guilliman considered Dorn to be amongst the Dauntless 5 (other members include Sanguinus, Ferrus, and the only non-sworn brother: Russ). My view is that they complement each other quite nicely. Guilliman didn't trust the Lion? Figures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4240105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand_master85 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I couldn't decide between them, so I plumped for both :-) Book VI should be out soon, with rules for Shattered Legions. I'm working on a force based around Ultramar/Unremembered Empire. But I echo the above comment re: painting. Paint up one of each and see which feels best. Yellow can be a tricky colour (I suggest using an airbrush) but if done right, can look amazing. Blue is a bit more forgiving. Read the fluff, look at the rules etc and see if one starts to grab you more than the other. I've rushed into projects before and regretted it. Even if you hold off for a bit, don't waste money in a desperate rush to get an army out. And always go with your gut instinct, doesn't matter if loads of people do Fists or Ultras, or one has better rules and so on; it's your army, so choose what feels right to you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4240130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Must take 'Phalanx Warder Squads' as compulsory Troops choices Actually, it's Breacher Squads that must be taken as Compulsory Troops. Phalanx Warders can still be non-compulsory Troops, but just in case you decide you want to go Imperial Fists, it's probably a good idea to know how their Rite of War works! ;) You can actually buy a Breacher upgrade set for normal plastic marines, including the Betrayal at Calth ones. Buy 5 of these (they come with 6 shields each) and you have 2 x 15 Breachers and a solid start to a Fists army! You can arm 1-in-5 in each squad with a decent selection of special weapons too! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Space-Marine-Boarding-Assault-Upgrade-Set Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4240150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Good catch, thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316519-trying-to-decide-between-imperial-fists-and-ultramarines/#findComment-4240212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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