Grav bombard and rapiers

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its odd, because 0 is occasionally represented as - according to the rule I quoted above, which also calls having 0 as a stat as having "no ability whatsoever". So yes, in some cases - +1=1....but who knows when if - isn't always synonymous for 0

[1ncarnadine]

I know, let's play the game where you pay 200 something points for your rapiers and get to play them. It's that simple.

 

If someone started to make the "your rapiers are strength nada and get removed automatically, no questions asked" argument and got serious... well, they would be sternly talked to, that is for sure. I would even maybe go so far as to tell them they are not good people. That's an extreme case tho.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But they'd be wrong; you need to have S or W reduced to 0 to have them removed.

[Athrawes]

I agree that if a grav-bombard hits rapiers it would probably auto-remove the rapier, as the rules are written. I don't think that, that is how it should work in a fair game though.

 

Honestly, if you know that you're facing rapiers, taking a grav Leviathan specifically with the intention of alpha striking it  and instantly removing them without a roll is super poor sportsmanship. There is trying to win the game in good fun, and there is being a jerk in order to win at all costs. This seems like tailoring a list specifically to defeat another list which is again, kinda poor sportsmanship.

 

Edit: additionally, the Spartan is one of the hardest to kill vehicles in the game, especially since most people take Armored cermatie and flare shields. Trying to alpha strike a unit to instantly take out something that has a chance to damage a spartan seems pretty gamey to boot.

 

There is using tactics to defeat your opponent, but I don't consider this a tactic. It's using a minor rule point to invalidate your opponents army list and put him at an unavoidable disadvantage.

 

Go ahead and do it once if you can, good luck getting that person to play you again though.

[1ncarnadine]

I agree that if a grav-bombard hits rapiers it would probably auto-remove the rapier, as the rules are written. I don't think that, that is how it should work in a fair game though.

 

Honestly, if you know that you're facing rapiers, taking a grav Leviathan specifically with the intention of alpha striking it  and instantly removing them without a roll is super poor sportsmanship. There is trying to win the game in good fun, and there is being a jerk in order to win at all costs. This seems like tailoring a list specifically to defeat another list which is again, kinda poor sportsmanship.

 

Edit: additionally, the Spartan is one of the hardest to kill vehicles in the game, especially since most people take Armored cermatie and flare shields. Trying to alpha strike a unit to instantly take out something that has a chance to damage a spartan seems pretty gamey to boot.

 

There is using tactics to defeat your opponent, but I don't consider this a tactic. It's using a minor rule point to invalidate your opponents army list and put him at an unavoidable disadvantage.

 

Go ahead and do it once if you can, good luck getting that person to play you again though.

 

Since it's an auto-strength test fail I thought it would just auto-wound and not auto-remove? They're 2Ws and the Grav-bombard has no S value

[Caillum]

Yeah, it would only take 1 wound. But like I mentioned in my first post, depending on how you deploy them (or the direction it's being shot) the wounds could be allocated onto the Rapier. If it's closest model - it will fail the test and take a wound, and chances are a crew member will also fail, thus stripping both wounds from the Rapier and destroying it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Building lists to counter regular opponents lists is poor sport?

 

Maybe back in the day when pickup games were still viable and you made a list at the store after just having seen the guy play then it would be considered so. 

 

But if you're like me and some others who have a small, dedicated group of friends and you all know what each other can (and often does) bring and you all modify your lists to counter the more frustrating parts every time you play what then? Are we just supposed to forget what our friends have access to and almost always use? Is bringing a lightning with krakens to kill your friend's spartan poor sport, or are you supposed to hope to glance it down over the course of an entire game?

[Athrawes]

Building lists to counter regular opponents lists is poor sport?

 

Maybe back in the day when pickup games were still viable and you made a list at the store after just having seen the guy play then it would be considered so. 

 

But if you're like me and some others who have a small, dedicated group of friends and you all know what each other can (and often does) bring and you all modify your lists to counter the more frustrating parts every time you play what then? Are we just supposed to forget what our friends have access to and almost always use? Is bringing a lightning with krakens to kill your friend's spartan poor sport, or are you supposed to hope to glance it down over the course of an entire game?

 

Building list which is capable of countering an opponents list is reasonable, Building a list to defeat an opponent by annihilating parts of his his list is poor sportsmanship. There is a distinction there, one mindset is about balancing a list, having fun on both sides, one is about trying to stack the deck against your opponent, winning at the expense of your opponents enjoyment. 

 

 

The difference, is that there are lots of things which can reliably destroy rapiers, there is pretty much nothing which can reliably kill a spartan. So why take something to instantly kill them first turn, unless you want to severely disadvantage your opponent?

 

in your example with the lightning, it doesnt alpha strike, there is no guarantee that it can destroy a spartan in one turn, its not even very likely, but its possible. WIth the podded Levi grav dread, We are talking about is a unit whose sole purpose is to alpha strike and invalidate an opponents unit choice, with very little in the way of recourse (I can't imagine much that could interceptor kill a Leviathan before it gets to fire.) No way to stop it.

 

There of course cases where list tailoring is acceptable, like when facing Lords of war or flyers. Basically in situations where you have now way with your standard list to have a chance at damaging something. 

 

The group I play with regularly is all about creating all comers lists, and whatever works for your group works for your group.

 

But with me and the guys I play with that kind of List building mindset is distasteful, which is why I said this:

 

 

 

 

Go ahead and do it once if you can, good luck getting that person to play you again though.

[xera32]

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[SkimaskMohawk]

Not sure I follow your logic, taking something thats meant to annihilate a parts of a list is poor form when you know there's a high likely hood of that appearing? Typhons do that to every infantry based list; you know people are going to have infantry and it just removes them from the equation. That's why they're so good in TAC lists; the prevalence of grav cannons to stop them (and spartans) would call for grav-levi dreads in pods as counter to those counters.

 

Not a lot of things can reliably kill rapiers, the best way is combat, but you have to get there, which is often very tricky. Sure a Levi is a hard counter to artillery, but its also points inefficient if thats all it manages to do. 3 grav rapiers are 225, while the most cynically alpha strike equipped Levi is 355. If you trade one for one, you lost 125 points.

 

Again, I'm not talking about pickup games, my friends don't get sour when I take a counter to something strong they play every game they adapt to what I play and overcome it, either in game, or if its too effective, by changing their list to counter my counter. Thats (imo) what improves players, learning to deal with evolving problems, which can also help drive a local meta. Not ringing the shame bell because certain people aren't making poor lists 

 

I do think our little discussion about poor sportsmanship be moved to a different thread though, as this one's purpose has been fulfilled

[Nusquam]

I believe he means taking something with the intentions of using a rules exploit/janky rule to roll your opponent is poor sportsmanship. Not something like taking chainfists to hurt armoured ceramite.

 

So far as the rules themselves I would let my opponent at least use the S of the marines and not just autoremove the rapiers.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't think that's any more rules exploity than a Mechanicum/Death Guard list taking Rad Furnace Mech's, Thurible and Rad Nades nuking a T3 enemy defense.

 

It's a very niche application that counters a Rapier Squadron in the manner that a Rapier Squadron counters a Spartan or provides 4 S5 Barrage Blasts. Taking near 400pts worth of model to kill a rapier squadron isn't exactly broken. I don't think it's especially list tailoring either. Rapiers are good and popular in most load outs, Levi's kill them well, so take levi's to kill them. Seems rather simple list building exercise.