Ravenwing Bike Squad Size

[Inverse]

In your experience which is the better option for pretty much the same point cost give or take a melta bomb.  

 

2 x Squad of 5 bikers with 2 grav (10 bikes 4 grav)

 

Or

 

3 x Squad of 3 bikers with 2 grav (9 bikes 6 grav)

Do the smaller units with more special weapons out perform the sturdier 5 man bike squads?  There is no objective secured on these squads so they are not really holding anything.  I am most likely bringing each squad in, on turn two from reserves to grav something and then run around grabbing objectives and cause havoc.

 

These squads are playing a supporting role to a larger group of black knights.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

9 bikes, 6 grav. One less model, 2 more special weapons.

[aura_enchanted]

I'm against the idea of three man bike squads, they fail one save and one guy dies and your looking at possibly falling back 2d6, they take two wounds and now you need insane heroism or run off that 2d6 not to mention that three marine bikers shooting is pitifully bad as is their combined cc.

 

For me it's 5 to a squad minimum or bust and pick something else

[JeffJedi]

I never take smaller than 6 man. Its too easy for 3 to be killed.

[aura_enchanted]

I never take smaller than 6 man. Its too easy for 3 to be killed.

eh 5 is passable, in the world we live in the difference between 5 bikes and 6 isnt that big when you consider your only losing 1/6th of their base cc potential and less than 1/7th of their shooting since they dont miss out on any weapons option slots unlike tactical marines

[Berzul]

I keep my squads at 5 minimum. I only run squads of 3 on 1000 points or less lists.

[aekold]

I'm against the idea of three man bike squads, they fail one save and one guy dies and your looking at possibly falling back 2d6, they take two wounds and now you need insane heroism or run off that 2d6 not to mention that three marine bikers shooting is pitifully bad as is their combined cc.

 

For me it's 5 to a squad minimum or bust and pick something else

 

Marines never need to roll insane heroism, dus to ATSKNF. They do fall back 3D6 however.

 

I would suggest keeping the ravenwing standard withing 12" in order to reroll morale.

 

Furthermore, with 2*5 bikes you give your opponent less targets, thereby making it easier for him to neutralize your shooting by forcing you to jink.

 

3*3 bikers with grav and combi grav is in my eyes way better.

[SnakeChisler]

I used to run 3 with 2 melta, 4 with 2 Grav seems to hit the sweet spot

 

Who wants to live forever

[Inverse]

Well I am somewhat glad to see everyone is as split on this decision as I am... I may have to run a few games both ways to see which I prefer.  I am still torn between the two.

 

I think aekold makes the best point about target saturation.  These bike squads are really just meant to play a small supporting role to a much larger group of black knights (12-16) 2 flyers, a ravenwing support squadron and a tank hunting ravenwing attack squadron with melta.

 

So really these 3 small little 100 point squads that can cause a lot of damage if ignored are to draw fire away from the larger more expensive units.  And since they are outflanking I am not too worried about falling back 3d6 off the table.  If they do fall back can always turbo boost to re-position somewhere else on the board to pick up objectives or help out where they are needed.

 

 

A couple of follow up questions

 

Is 20 points (vet sarge + combi) worth it for combi-gravs on the sergeant? I never really messed around too much combi weapons but 9 grav shots on the turn they come on the board does sound nice.  If I had 60 points to shave I would probably beef up the squads though 20 points almost buys you an extra biker.

 

4 bikers doesn't really help with the whole lose 1 and you need to pass a morale test, 5 does but only until they inevitable get knocked down to 4 and then you are facing the same problem.  I am slightly confused with the whole insane heroism thing, probably because I have only ever played dark angels and don't run into it much.  If I lose 66% of a squad to shooting (2 out of 3) they would do a normal moral check and then automatically group on my next turn if they failed after running 3d6 (as per ATSKNF)

 

I miss the old stubborn rules :)

[Malakai]

I will be using 6 with a plasma and whatever I can convert to put on another bike (Using the DV set as I prefer those bikes).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Vet sgt upgrade is not worth it, but the combi is always nice to have, but better in 4+ bike squad sizes, because of casualties.

 

As for the original question what I see here is people comparing 3 vs 5 man bikes when the comparison should be between the total number of bikes. 9 vs 10, because the game does not function in vacuum.

Defensively, having 9 or 10 is almost the same in terms of staying power. You can hide 3 man squads better than bigger squads. It's true that one casualty and they have to make a test but at LD 8 you pass roughly 75% of the time. Also an opponent will generally try to wipe out a squad instead of just killing one and hoping for a fall back result, so morale checks won't be so often made.

 

Now offensively, there a big difference.

6 graviton guns will kill 8 marines,  plus 3 bolters is more 0.44. wich means 8.44 marines per shooting.

4 grav will kill 5.33, plus 6 bolters is more 0.88 , so 6.2 marines per turn.

The gravs (or meltas or plasmas) are the workhorses and the bolters are just plinking accessories, so to say

AS you can see it's the difference between taking out almost a ten man squad or just a bit more than half. In two three turns of shooting, the 6 gravs and 3 bolters will have taken out 25 marines and the 4 gravs and 6 bolters only 16 marines.

 

What if one squad gets taken out? Well in that case you still have 4 grav guns in one case and only 2 in the other.

 

What about CC? There's no reason bikes should charge in CC unless against Tau or IG, something they can win or serve as tarpit. If you really need you can tie 2 x3 man squads in CC and still have one going around shooting. 2x3 man squads in CC are as good as 1x6 man squad for all purposes. 

What about if the enemy charges bikes? Then it's also good you have 3 squads instead of only 2 because the more squads you have free shooting those gravs the better.

40K is still a game were you get the best results from min-maxing and at this points, having more gravs is better than having more bolter bodies.

[Inverse]

Wow thanks for the break down Lucifer.  I think the mathhammer break down on shooting plus not being too worried about moral are really good points.  Also I think if you are looking at the total number of bikers 9vs10 you have to remember that having three squads means you can grab 3 different objectives, shoot 3 different targets or control 3 different areas of the board.

 

As for CC I almost never charge with my bike squads unless they are actually trying to just hide in combat to hit and run in the enemy phase.  If they get charged I should have the support squadron within 24 inches and that will be the last time someone makes that mistake.