Loddfafnir113 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 So its well known that Curze and Dorn had a bit of an argument which lead to a whole series of events culminating in the Night Lords going rogue a vague amount of time before the heresy (several years before it if I've worked it out correctly). Now the whole thing about them showing up at Istvaan has been basically put down to a lengthy administrative oversight, whereby "everyone was just too busy to look into it". Now I've not read a huge amount of the heresy novels, but as far as I can tell this whole thing hasn't ever been addressed since The Dark King. Do any of the books give a more satisfying explanation of the whole thing? I know the Emperor had a lot on his plate, but surely an entire legion of astartes going rogue would have made its way to the top of his to do list. If nothing else surely Dorn and Fulgrim would want some kind of justice from the men they lost in Curze's escape? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 You're right, it's never been explicitly stated just how far in advance of Istvaan, Nikea or even Ullanor the Night Lords disappeared into the galactic night as it were. As for the Emperor, in all likelihood he did indeed have other priorities and of course he made a bit of a mistake (as with regards to quite a few other things) and put his trust in Horus to sort everything out. Realistically there's: Ullanor: The Emperor holds a triumph knowing the Great Crusade his peaked and that Horus will finish the conquest of the galaxy whilst He returns to Terra to begin his work on the Golden Throne......webway.....no need for warp travel etc etc etc Nikea: A pressing problem because several Primarchs have reached the point where they're not happy with psychic power in the Legions (Russ and Mortarion at the very least) Ok so a Legion of 180,000+ Astartes (no one knew just how large the VIII Legion was) going off the reservation is a pretty big problem but there's vague little hints here and there that the little snippets of information that made it back to the Imperium during this time appeared to show the Night Lords continuing to prosecute the Crusade, even if that crossed the lines between compliance and annihilation. And if worst did indeed come to worst and the VIII suffered dissolution, look what the likely outcome would have been: Horus would have been tasked with crushing them and taking Curze's head back to Terra. Before his fall, he could have counted on Sanguinius, Fulgrim, Dorn, Mortarion and the Khan at the very least to back him up. I love the Night Lords and Konrad as a character but let's not pretend otherwise: Horus would have butchered him and his Legion without breaking a sweat. As for Nikea, to the Emperor that was likely a bigger problem because it was directly affecting several Legions rather than just the one (the WS, TS, BA, DG, SW, EC) and not only that but it had the potential to cause splits within the Imperial Court at large if not dealt with effectively. Which from a practical point of view makes more sense to deserve the more urgency. There's a brief mention of Dorn's unease in The Outcast Dead when he learns that the VIII had responded to his orders to go to Istvaan and end Horus although it's overlooked as to exactly where it comes from. Maybe when the Night Lords get some more HH love it will be looked at Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Curze goes schiz, blows up homeworld. Gets arrested Tickles Dorn Goes back in charge of Legion Considered untrustworthy, but still loyal Tickles everyone he can reach on Isstvan V He now really isn't liked That is briefly how it plays out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Considering the most anyone is liked in the VIII legion is the atramentar plus mercutian being loyal to Sevatar, I don't think Curze really gives two hoots. And the Dorn tickling as it were leading to Dorn being paranoid about facing Curze again for a bit. Considered untrustworthy by Vulkan, yet still sent in to quell Horus' rebellion on the same side as the salamanders without Vulkan saying a word. Also Curze having a suprising tolerance for Fulgrim after the whole arresting shenanigans. For some reason Curze is that primarch who gets ignored by the others because reasons. It's odd. Then he does something super bad, isn't ignored because doing said things, then he disappears for a bit and there's a whole "phew, glad that's over" and he's forgotten even though the threat is still present. Not entirely sure I've conveyed that all too well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 The NL going rogue is still kind of on the spectrum of what other legions were doing though. The extreme end but of a kind to other examples. The White Scars were barely contactable most of the time and hardly seem to have aimed at the targets given to them. The WE had been called out multiple times on excessive force and being indiscriminate for a long time before attracting official censure in the form of Horus being sent. As long as the NL were carrying on the crusade, they were filling their purpose. Imperial command's response to all the bad press the WE were gathering was similar enough, just group them with other unstable armed forces and point them at systems where you're not too bothered about keeping them intact. Failure was the worst crime: the WB were censured for their lack of victories much more than the WE or NL were for their atrocities. Half-killing Dorm, yeah, not good, but he was on record as almost coming to blows with Ferrus Manus and the Lion both. Not to be... victime-blamey here I can see how observers might look at what happened and be horrified but perhaps not surprised. Look, the famously difficult-to-get-along-wtih Dorn had got in a scrape that went too far this time. It's all bad and would definitely have to be addressed sooner or later but outright rebellion from the favourite primarch and three brothers takes precedence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I don't know, I'm pretty sure we're actually given a pretty decent ballpark to guess in for their disappearance. Massacre pins the date for Nostramo's destruction as being roughly twenty years before Istvaan V and they were supposed to disappear shortly afterward according to what little background material exists on the subject. But ultimately, what little contact the Imperium had with the Legion said it was still loyal and its obvious Lorgar or Horus was able to communicate with Curze, although it has never been said how. And I'm inclined to believe they left behind some kind of token fleet that "behaved" in front of the Imperium. Reason being is that the VIII Legion Librarian was present at Nikea and was also taken to Terra at some point to become part of the Crusader Host. As far as Istvaan V goes, Massacre points out that the Night Lords volunteered for Istvaan V and Dorn reluctantly allowed them to join as he thought they were loyal and needed every bolter and sword arm he could get. But Massacre also points out that ge sent some sort orders to Ferrus Manus regarding Curze following Istvaan, probably another attempt to arrest him and bring him to Terra. So any three ways you slice it, the VIII Legion keeps coming across as an ally of desperation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 The NL going rogue is still kind of on the spectrum of what other legions were doing though. The extreme end but of a kind to other examples. The White Scars were barely contactable most of the time and hardly seem to have aimed at the targets given to them. The WE had been called out multiple times on excessive force and being indiscriminate for a long time before attracting official censure in the form of Horus being sent. As long as the NL were carrying on the crusade, they were filling their purpose. Imperial command's response to all the bad press the WE were gathering was similar enough, just group them with other unstable armed forces and point them at systems where you're not too bothered about keeping them intact. Failure was the worst crime: the WB were censured for their lack of victories much more than the WE or NL were for their atrocities. Half-killing Dorm, yeah, not good, but he was on record as almost coming to blows with Ferrus Manus and the Lion both. Not to be... victime-blamey here I can see how observers might look at what happened and be horrified but perhaps not surprised. Look, the famously difficult-to-get-along-wtih Dorn had got in a scrape that went too far this time. It's all bad and would definitely have to be addressed sooner or later but outright rebellion from the favourite primarch and three brothers takes precedence. Pretty much agree completely. Don't forget that the Iron Warriors also razed their home-planet and were never called to account. I believe all Legions committed atrocities at one time or another so Curze was toeing the line, but he wasnt the only one. Edit: Also remember that the Lion and Russ came to blows. It's probably not that uncommon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4238954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Want there a story by Join French that has Sevatar in command because Curze is on what I assumed was Terra while their Chief Librarian is basically demanding judgement from Sevatar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Child of the night. Ace story Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Curze goes schiz, blows up homeworld. Gets arrested Tickles Dorn Goes back in charge of Legion Considered untrustworthy, but still loyal Tickles everyone he can reach on Isstvan V He now really isn't liked That is briefly how it plays out. I think he gets arrested and has his punch up with Dorn before he blows up the planet. The Forge World book thry are in suggests that it was hoped Curze and his sons deep sense of justice would be enough to get them to fight against Horus and his armies. Seems desperate to me but desperate times.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Timeline as I understand it as follows: Arguments between Curze and Dorn on a newly compliant world ending with the night Lord's being sent back to orbit Curse tells Fulgrim in confidence about his dark visions Fulgrim tells Dorn about Curze's visions Rogal confronts Curze like a bit of a tool as though these visions are all Curze's fault Curze loses himself and curbstomps an unarmoured Rogal Curze is placed under arrest Curze escapes killing a ton of Phoenix guard and elite fists Curze and his legion go home and nuke nostromo before the fists can stop them and vanish into the big black Time passes Horus rebels and suddenly the Night Lord's are part of the second wave at isstvan Go figure? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fun Fact: After reading this thread I realized that there are only 3 documented instances of Dorn being engaged in "combat" during/prior to Horus Heresy: 1) Being beaten by Curze 2) punching Garro in the face 3) beheading corrupted remembrencer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Curze loses himself and curbstomps an unarmoured Rogal Hey Curze was unarmored too, don't make it sound like the fight was unfair lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fun Fact: After reading this thread I realized that there are only 3 documented instances of Dorn being engaged in "combat" during/prior to Horus Heresy: 1) Being beaten by Curze 2) punching Garro in the face 3) beheading corrupted remembrencer Hence all the overcompensation we see elsewhere, if you know what I mean XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I was always under the impression that he'd destroyed Nostramo on his way to Istvaan and that the encounter with Fulgrim and Dorn had happened 10-20 years prior. Long enough for them to come to somewhat amiable terms again before the drop-site massacre. It seems my timeline is a bit skewed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I was always under the impression that he'd destroyed Nostramo on his way to Istvaan and that the encounter with Fulgrim and Dorn had happened 10-20 years prior. Long enough for them to come to somewhat amiable terms again before the drop-site massacre. It seems my timeline is a bit skewed. If memory serves correct, it does not exactly say when the homeworld was in revolt, only in The Dark King we see that he blows up the Nostramo at the very end after escaping "imprisonment" for eating Dorns face. It could be the case that he went straight home after the event with Dorn and found the world in the state it was. Looking back, I really need to listen to it again. I suppose we might hear more in a future book about it? after all they have not really had their own book yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loddfafnir113 Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 The impression I got from The Dark King and a few other sources (most notably their old IA article in White Dwarf) was that he was aware Nostramo had been slipping back to its old ways for a while. From Sevatar's explanation in The Long Night, the reason that he blew it up was more about embarrasment than anything else, as he spent so long defending his methods and philosophies to the other primarch's only to find the first world he 'saved' to have fallen to wrack and ruin. My understanding was that this was pretty much the first thing he did after escaping from the Fists ship, as it mentions the Night Lords fleet had to leave the system almost immediately after the act because the Fists were chasing them. After reading all the replies, I suppose the whole event, when looked at in the wider context of the crusade and early heresy, isn't quite as monumental as it seems. Completely forgot about the bust up between Johnson and Russ too, which is along pretty similar lines, so that could just be explained as sibling rivalry gone too far and the Emperor probably wouldn't have been too bothered about what with Ullanor/The Imperial Webway/Remembering he'd left the oven on in the Palace taking up his time. The reason this sticks out for me though is that Curze killed quite a few Phoenix guard and Imperial fists on his escape, making him the first Primarch to kill another legions astartes (some of them probably close to Fulgrim and Dorn). I can't imagine Dorn just saying 'right well we'll let him off this time'. Hopefully this'll get explained further in another book. Perhaps the Emperor just let it slide as long as the Night Lords carried on with the crusade. Or Dorn and Fulgrim covered the whole thing up out of embarrassment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Yeah unfortunately this is what you get when you have a setting in which multiple authors wrote and are given relatively free reign to do so. More and more examples of pre-heresy Astartes conflicts keep coming to light which make the earlier works that talk about the absolutely "unthinkable" act of attacking another Astartes ring hollow. It's now become a thing where only the most ignorant Space Marines couldn't conceptualizer attacking one of their brethren. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 The timeline has been pretty much nailed down. I think that, in the heat of the moment, Kurze's crimes are overshadowed by the claims of Horus. Bringing in Kurze for censure after killing Nostromo suddenly goes to the bottom of the Agenda when word of Istvaan III reaches Terra. Dorn was willing to use the Night Lords to bring in Horus, not knowing they had already sided with the Warmaster. Kind of an "All available Legions, head to the Istvaan System" deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Sorry Heinrich I did mean to point out that Curze was also unarmoured... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I think it has to do with how the others perceive him. Curze is like Mcauley Culkin in home alone. He's a special kid in a nut job family with 20 syblings. When he finally blows a gasket and punches back from all that seemingly harmless abuse, they don't pronounce him a traitor. They are just shocked by what he did and give him some space. So when the heresy rolls around, they expect him to come back home. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4239971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Does that make Dorn Marv or Harry? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4240104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Does that make Dorn Marv or Harry? To quote a little girl on the internet, why not both? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4240201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I figured it'd make him Buzz....."Buzz, your girlfriend....WOOF". It was on last night lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316574-curze-and-dorn/#findComment-4240228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.