Xenith Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In 30k the top-tier of armies varies depending on meta. Drop pod armies murder landraider ones, but in turn are beat by heavy interceptor ones, which face poorly against other ones... So 30k is even more RPS than 40k, where stuff is mostly balanced apart from Eldar? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 The thing is, anyone can have Interceptor so anyone can defend against alpha strike armies which are very dominant in 40k. It's not necessarily RPS, there are hard counters for the various lists which is good for the game. It promotes the use of units which you might otherwise not take as they would be vulnerable to a drop pod assault. Some Legions are certainly more mobile, others are more survivable. Some are more suitable to cc, others to ranged shooting. Not everything is equal, but that tends to be due to the quirks/limitations of the core rules. The only thing I tend to say is that you won't get a complete slaughter in a pick-up game like you could in 40k, though a well written list will trump something that isn't as well thought out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm at the legion choices I'm at because I scored each legion based upon the following questions: DO YOU LIKE THE LEGIONS FLUFF? HORUS HERESY NOVELS ETC. DO YOU LIKE THE LEGIONS PRIMARCH? FLUFF, RULES IF HE HAS THEM, MINI IF THERE IS ONE? DO THEY HAVE FW RULES YET? (BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW) DO YOU LIKE THE LEGIONS PLAYSTYLE AS YOU PERCEIVE IT TO BE, TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THEIR RULES IF THEY HAVE THEM DO YOU LIKE THE LEGIONS AESTHETICS? COLOUR SCHEME, BESPOKE MODELS ETC. CAN YOU PAINT THEM FAIRLY WELL? CAN YOU PAINT THEM FAIRLY QUICKLY? With 1 point for every yes against each legion. So it's World Eaters and Alpha Legion a dead heat with full marks and Raven Guard a close runner up. I was just wanting to make sure that whatever I chose I wouldn't be shooting myself in the foot by doing it Some useful information in this thread, and the one Slipstreams linked me to. Cheers Guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Have you painted up a test mini for any of the legions? It's strongly advised because even though you might like the way it looks, if you hate painting it then it's probably not worth the trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Certainly have, and the results factored into the above (I'm an airbrush user so the whites etc. are a doddle) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Certainly have, and the results factored into the above (I'm an airbrush user so the whites etc. are a doddle) Pics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 You'll have to bear with me on that one - my stuffs packed away for Xmas (and the arrival of my BaC stuff). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 So it's World Eaters and Alpha Legion a dead heat with full marks and Raven Guard a close runner up. I told you, you play World Eaters now. Well, the OP said that it wont affect his decision too much. So I'm taking executive action: Harry Potter, you now Play Heresy World Eaters. They stand out from the other stealthy/shooty legions you mention. Decide that in your head. You play World Eaters. Are you happy with the choice I made for you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I have a soft spot for world eaters. The amount of brutality you can display on your minis is unparalleled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I don't think the RG statement is particularly true. Yes, they can alpha strike, but an entire Marine army in 30k can have Interceptor! Into AV12? And who uses Heavy Weapon Squads Or Melta Special Weapon Squads? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 If I wasn't playing games with them it'd be World Eaters all the way, Angron and Khârn are my favourite character minis, and I love the blue and white. And that A-D-B bloke just nails them for me - genetically engineered football hooligans :) Just not sure I wouldn't enjoy playing Alpha Legion more, I like the shennanigans they can pull off ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Why not do both? Your plan with Alpha Legion was to use Fists as a reserve anyway, why not switch them out for World Eater reserves? That way you can play with both without commiting to one until you know which one you prefer on the tabletop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 "Entire armies can get interceptor so alpha strike isn't as good". That's such a misleading statement. First, you can stay in your pod in 30k so that counters all the small arm fire. Second, augery scanners only work on rapid fire and heavy weapons, which means it's on tactical squads 90% of the time, which can't hurt pods; only heavy support squads or havocs are an actual threat. Third, the scanners only have an 18" range, limiting the impact of those heavy weapons. Fourth, the only other source of intercept, helical targeting array, is even more limited; you're confined to a 22.5 degree arc to either side and interceptor only kicks in after the controlling player has had a turn. Conclusion: only heavy support/havocs with full LOS within 18" are a threat to alpha strike (with pods) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I certainly have noticed a change in what is important balance wise since my area had a big 30k recruitment drive. Several people jumped on the Heresy Wagon, but there are two individuals who have dramatically changed the tone of the local group - one for being a notorious power gamer and the other by happenstance. So, Mr. Blue we'll call him, for his love of Tau, opted for an Onslaught Typhon siege tank and Mortarion force. Basically, he looked through all the units in 30k and saw the typhon is probably the most cost effective superheavy, influenced in no small part by the infantry bias in 30k lists and built an army around that. While nowhere near as egregious as many of the things he has and continued to use in 40k (though he has become slightly better in that regard owing to a dearth of opponents), it has still heavily influenced everyone elses list building. Everyone asks (usually me - my group has an issue with reading rules on their own) "How do I kill Mr. Blue's Typhon and Spartan?" and thus every list under construction right now is chock full of whatever each player determines can stop that. And that arms race is what I believe really undermines 40k; responding to some new hotness which is so much more powerful than most things and ultimately kills the friendly aspect of the game. For now, some of us have taken the "yeah, he'll kill all our stuff, but we'll just focus on objectives to try and irritate him by winning without really fighting him", but we'll see how well that goes. The 2nd is Word Bearers, in particular, its Daemon allies. We've got no shortage of Chaos players of one stripe or another locally (I'm the only person out of an extended group of 30-something people WITHOUT a Chaos army of some kind), and the natural conclusion for many has been to incorporate what they can model wise into 30k. For one Word Bearer, Daemons make perfect sense, but their rules are so horrifically incongrous with 30k that it's a bit terrifying. To say nothing of summoning, even basic daemons; Bloodletters, Daemonettes and such are so massively more powerful than 30k units owing to their extreme low points cost and lack of leadership demands. So much of what 30k is balanced around just doesn't apply to Daemons, and were it not for Volkite they'd sweep the field every time. I would really like to see 30k make their own daemon list to properly balance it within the system, as just dumping one of the most powerful 40k armies into the much calmer sea of 30k is unpleasent, and it's awkward for people doing perfectly fluffy things. Those two combined have resulted in much more mercenary decisions in list building, the end result I am still unsure of. Save for the fact my Emperor's Children and Solar Auxilia have their work cut out for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Whist I do agree that bringing a very particular selection of daemon allies can somewhat destabilise the game, I don't feel that brings them in general is much to be concerned about. Solar Auxilia in particular - the basic 100 point squad is exceptional at dealing with deamons. A Malcador Infernus would burn entire swathes of them with ease also. Remember the Daemons are the allies. If you worry too much about them being abused simply play games at 2k. With the points investment a primary detachment of Word Bearers requires, it will limit the Daemons. As for the Typhon, it only has 6 hullpoints. In the Heresy there is lots of Grav, Tank Hunting and Sunder. I'm not concerned at all. If everyone thinks the Typhon is so strong, why don't they all just add one to their lists? It's available to everyone after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Whist I do agree that bringing a very particular selection of daemon allies can somewhat destabilise the game, I don't feel that brings them in general is much to be concerned about. Solar Auxilia in particular - the basic 100 point squad is exceptional at dealing with deamons. A Malcador Infernus would burn entire swathes of them with ease also. Remember the Daemons are the allies. If you worry too much about them being abused simply play games at 2k. With the points investment a primary detachment of Word Bearers requires, it will limit the Daemons. As for the Typhon, it only has 6 hullpoints. In the Heresy there is lots of Grav, Tank Hunting and Sunder. I'm not concerned at all. If everyone thinks the Typhon is so strong, why don't they all just add one to their lists? It's available to everyone after all. The daemon factor comes from scale and cost; 30k is expensive, so the local WB army is minimal WB, as many daemons as possible to get out of the gate- a phenomena I totally understand, but it creates an interesting phenomena that as he builds up his army, it actually becomes less powerful. The Typhon is more a case of how people want to build their armies; most people locally are drawn to infantry, and while yes there are answers to the typhon, having one player going Typhon+Primarch+Spartan full of terminators radically changes the tone of play. It's not unbeatable, but it has the effect of forcing everyone else to arms race as it flies in the face of what everyone else is doing because of its unparalleled ability to erase infantry - something other Superheavies don't have. To put it into context, this choice was so calculated in its power aspect that the owner didn't even realize it was named after the character Typhon, later Typhus (his favourite Chaos HQ in 40k no less). I'm not trying to argue there's some fundamental balance issue (though I do think the Typhon is a touch too effective, but not dramatically), but rather that the dynamic has changed with a greater influx of 40k players with a more tournament mindset. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 You are overrating the daemon power level. Outside of a few builds they are utterly average. I played them in 40k for a while, nothing impressive about the general units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4240963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 You are overrating the daemon power level. Outside of a few builds they are utterly average. I played them in 40k for a while, nothing impressive about the general units. But that's just it, the people playing Daemons still focus on those power builds; summoning farms, inexpensive shrouded troops, super high speed assault units (screamers mostly), and as 30k becomes more maintstream and available, they want to port their armies over to flesh out their legions while they build them up. Against "Nice" daemons, no, they're not massively imbalancing - a bit of an uphill struggle for a legion but nothing apocalyptic (my Auxilia fare quite well against them, mind you), but as soon as the more egregious stuff that codex is capable of starts coming out, then things get messy. In short, they aren't designed in the same manner as 30k and can be an issue. They pay no premium for fear, power weapons, rending, invulnerable saves or their immunity to leadership checks, all of which are rare or expensive in 30k. FW clearly designed to mitigate their low cost by making the requirements more expensive when using Word Bearers, but summoning sort of throws that whole system out the window. In short, they used a bandaid which sort of works, but is showing its limitations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 the typhon isn't named after typhon; it was made by perturabo. Onslaught needs consent to run instead of age of darkness Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 the typhon isn't named after typhon; it was made by perturabo. Onslaught needs consent to run instead of age of darkness That notion of consent is another sticking point locally; you don't need consent for anything in 40k, and trying to tell someone, "No, I don't care for your brand of cheese" doesn't tend to go over well. This is the divide I'm trying to get at, where there are those who play friendly and those that don't, and I've seen a marked upswing in the latter since BaC has made the point of entry much more accessible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 You are overrating the daemon power level. Outside of a few builds they are utterly average. I played them in 40k for a while, nothing impressive about the general units. But that's just it, the people playing Daemons still focus on those power builds; summoning farms, inexpensive shrouded troops, super high speed assault units (screamers mostly), and as 30k becomes more maintstream and available, they want to port their armies over to flesh out their legions while they build them up. Against "Nice" daemons, no, they're not massively imbalancing - a bit of an uphill struggle for a legion but nothing apocalyptic (my Auxilia fare quite well against them, mind you), but as soon as the more egregious stuff that codex is capable of starts coming out, then things get messy. In short, they aren't designed in the same manner as 30k and can be an issue. They pay no premium for fear, power weapons, rending, invulnerable saves or their immunity to leadership checks, all of which are rare or expensive in 30k. FW clearly designed to mitigate their low cost by making the requirements more expensive when using Word Bearers, but summoning sort of throws that whole system out the window. In short, they used a bandaid which sort of works, but is showing its limitations. Tell him to stop power building. 30k isn't the arms race that 40k has become, and you're not playing in a tournament. Alternatively, tell him you won't play him until he actually has a 30k army, and not a 40k daemon list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 .................... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Honestly if the guy is consistently power gaming and then gets all whiney when confronted about it, don't play him. Eventually others will take your lead and maybe, just maybe, the guy will finally realize nobody wants to play against him. Especially if they're non-competitive games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 And that arms race is what I believe really undermines 40k; responding to some new hotness which is so much more powerful than most things and ultimately kills the friendly aspect of the game. For now, some of us have taken the "yeah, he'll kill all our stuff, but we'll just focus on objectives to try and irritate him by winning without really fighting him", but we'll see how well that goes. Well, you guys are also escalating. Play the Typhon a few times, then tell him you wont play that list again if it's really that bad. Do exactly as you did in 40k, or have themed games, with storyline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316609-in-game-legion-power-levels/page/2/#findComment-4241275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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