Looking at some Ally Ideas.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hello again B&C,

Today I would like to ask your thoughts on a few things. The name says it all, and although I've seen some threads already, if the mod wants to move this please do so, I have been looking at getting some allies for the Boys in red for awhile now, I was just curious about your thoughts on a few things. 

I know we can always just take a vanilla detachment and have them "Count as" Blood angels INO when really they are just a red marines detachment: I.E. Centurions with a libby, tac squad and 1-2xpods rolling on divination. This so far has been my #1 go to. It helps by giving extra grav-weapon support against the occasional pesky wraith knight, and the massive amounts of TEQs and Bikers I've seen on the table top lately.

There is also the Imperial Knight, which I could paint in the House Raven Heraldry, which covers a lot of the missing elements I feel the BA's are lacking in. It is just hard for me to fit my own fluff in with an Imperial Knight right now, and a lot of my mates don't really like playing against super heavies, just because many of them are budget players, or if I'm playing in a PUG. I've noticed watching some of the player base at the FLGS seem to be discouraging when 1 bloke pulls out an Imperial Knight or Wraith Knight in a PUG and I feel like with this I would want to okay it with my opponent in a planned game just so they would have the heads up.

There is also the imps: I really love the Kasrkins storm troopers lore, and I really like the Tempestus Scion models, I know they aren't the best the imps have to offer, but the Taurox being a fast mobile tank (although not very durable) with extra range and a little higher damage output looks appealing. Not to mention their one of my favorite aesthetics armies out right now.  Valkyries aren't terribly expensive for some extra air support with melta/plasma squads either.  The troop tax of allies seems to be a little easier to manage compared to standard IG/AM from a gaming standpoint versus hobby standpoint. 

I have also been looking at a Vindicare/Culexus assassin. They are pretty cheap in the secondary market, (the board game is also an option) seem like an ideal quick fix. Would be super easy to get on the board quick and do lots and lots of damage. The range and psychic support seem like they would both really plug a couple of holes I seem to be having with my Vermillion Tears right now. I just don't know how they would fit into a detachment. I haven't read their rules, Are they like Cypher who is a free HQ Slot?

There are always AoC: which I'm open to. I do have loads of Space Elves I play with from time to time. Tau would be nice but I'm really on a budget of at or around >$200 right now.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, over here is a discussion on the merits of allying Grav Centurions, in case that interests you.

 

Also, I do not think we can or even should be discussing Xenos allies. In short, Tau can offer you a firebase with that Formation from Black Library and Eldar can offer you mobile S6 spam. Right, enough of those heresies, lest my fingers turn black and my laptop tries to eat me.

 

There has been some noise about IG when BA released. Command Squad with 4 Meltas, two units of Vets with Demo Charges and 3 Special Weapons each, all in BA pods. Stupid and unfluffy? I would say yes. But it brings you cheap BS4 specials to the front lines that can benefit from orders like Ignore Cover and Tank/Monster Hunter.

Scions are a bit odd. They bring less specials and cost more. You pay premium for S3 AP3 guns, which aren't exactly great, MtC and Deep Strike, the latter of which you do not need if you use Pods. It would be a nice spectacle to see Scions deep striking with jumpers though. If that fails, use Kasrkin models for Veterans. It ain't that far off.

 

Of all the Assassins, the Culexus is ace. I prefer him in a Rhino as opposed to a Pod to have mobility beyond the first turn. BA Rhinos are even better because they are fast, allowing you to cover 24" in a turn. If you want an assassin, take that guy. He is amazing to camp and carry a relic, if you play that mission. He disables psychic death stars and perils the opponent like there is no tomorrow. A single 6 to wound in CC is also enough to remove a Riptide from the board, provided that he botches his invul save. On top of his own pseudo-invisibility he is incredibly tough to shift.

[Charlo]

Scion aware pretty rad ad they offer us with a nice source of ap3, but at a relatively cheap price. Theyre also fast enough to keep up with us, and if the enemy shoots at them, you're laughing :D

 

An inquisitor/ Corteaz is a crazy little tool kit to help deepstrikes, protect your firebase and get cheap psychic support.

 

Assassins are just thier own detachment I think, of a single assassin. Theyre also awesome.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well, over here is a discussion on the merits of allying Grav Centurions, in case that interests you.

Thanks! I've already looked at that, I felt like there was some real substance there. I've talked to a few mates about it, and they almost all agree that the $80 price tag on Grav-Cents is a real bargain for what you get on the table. I've also got everything but the cents and pod. I have a standard libby I can use (to keep it cheap) I hadn't thought about the BS4 Scouts, but I have those, and most of my friends let me play them as regular marines anyways, but now I can easily just substitute those in thanks!

Also, I do not think we can or even should be discussing Xenos allies. In short, Tau can offer you a firebase with that Formation from Black Library and Eldar can offer you mobile S6 spam. Right, enough of those heresies, lest my fingers turn black and my laptop tries to eat me.

Apologies.

There has been some noise about IG when BA released. Command Squad with 4 Meltas, two units of Vets with Demo Charges and 3 Special Weapons each, all in BA pods. Stupid and unfluffy? I would say yes. But it brings you cheap BS4 specials to the front lines that can benefit from orders like Ignore Cover and Tank/Monster Hunter.

Scions are a bit odd. They bring less specials and cost more. You pay premium for S3 AP3 guns, which aren't exactly great, MtC and Deep Strike, the latter of which you do not need if you use Pods. It would be a nice spectacle to see Scions deep striking with jumpers though. If that fails, use Kasrkin models for Veterans. It ain't that far off.

There is a Bloke at the locals that did this in a tournament. Too filthy for me though. I don't have a problem with regular Imps, I was just looking at a much higher model count there that achieves the same thing as the Tempestus Scions do, only on a lower model count. IIRC the command squad is really the only unit you want to take HSV. Everyone else you just make a plasma/melta suicide squad in a valkyrie. That's what I was looking at.

Of all the Assassins, the Culexus is ace. I prefer him in a Rhino as opposed to a Pod to have mobility beyond the first turn. BA Rhinos are even better because they are fast, allowing you to cover 24" in a turn. If you want an assassin, take that guy. He is amazing to camp and carry a relic, if you play that mission. He disables psychic death stars and perils the opponent like there is no tomorrow. A single 6 to wound in CC is also enough to remove a Riptide from the board, provided that he botches his invul save. On top of his own pseudo-invisibility he is incredibly tough to shift.

Cool! I didn't think about a rhino! Makes more sense! So the bubble-debuff works even if he's in a transport?

Scion aware pretty rad ad they offer us with a nice source of ap3, but at a relatively cheap price. Theyre also fast enough to keep up with us, and if the enemy shoots at them, you're laughing

My Thoughts exactly.

An inquisitor/ Corteaz is a crazy little tool kit to help deepstrikes, protect your firebase and get cheap psychic support.

Interesting. I'll look into that.

Assassins are just thier own detachment I think, of a single assassin. Theyre also awesome.

They really do seem awesome. I'm reeaaallly liking the idea of both of them. Although from what I've read the Vindicare was nerfed against AV13/14 he can still shoot hellfire rounds against pesky power fist sergeants with only a 6+ LoS and take out all special weapons on MEQs. I also read the Math-Hammer that hellfire rounds against anything with a 5++ or worse and the shield breaker against 4++ or better.

The Culexus is just screaming auto-take as an allied force. I do worry about him though.

Comments in Red!

[Frater Cornelius]

All ranges are measured from and to a the transport's hull if the model in question is embarked. The only thing you can not do is draw a line of sight from the transport (Coteaz can not do his Interceptor move when embarked). Bubble effects are fair game ;)

 

Another thing you may want to consider, especially if you are running mech, is armoured support and blobs. Leman Russ are pretty solid in this day of S6 and S7 spam. Wyvern take apart enemy infantry at range and the blobs hold your objectives. You may want to check out the Cadian Formations in the Montka book, seeing as you can take them as stand-alones in your army ;) That way you will have less of a cheese spam and more of a balanced force.

 

If you want to do a Descend of Angels themed army, consider the Valkyrie Formation from the Scion book. Very thematic in a jumper-based BA army.

[Pendent]

I'm personally partial to taking the Storm Wing formation from the vanilla Marines codex. It's reasonably fluffy (really, why would the Blood Angels *not* have Storm Talons) and basically gives you automatic air superiority. Load the Storm Talons up with Typhoon launchers and you have a highly versatile unit that can do a lot of good work.

I've also been experimenting with the idea of taking an allied Space Marine detachment almost purely for the Thunderfire Cannon and taking a third detatchment for a Vindicare. Use the Techmarine gunner to bolster some ruins where you have the Vindcare and your Devastators camped out and they become pretty hard to dislodge. No idea how well this would work in an actual game as I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

The assasins in general are very, very solid. The better options are the Vindicare and the Culexus, both of which are taken as detachments of a single model, or in a detachment of all four assassins (this last night particularly reccommended). I've played my Vindicare a few times and he's been handy, though I've had a bit of trouble actually making his points back. There's a lot of value in killing off special weapons units that can be hard to put a price tag on, though. I also hear very postive things about the Culexus in a Stormraven.

I agree that bringing a Knight fills in a lot of holes but they also feel highly cheesy. I have a Paladin and the first time I brought him out I was playing my work buddy's Imperial Guard. My Knight proceeded to kill most of his blob of Guardsmen in a single turn of shooting and then almost single-handedly murdered his tanks as well. I just haven't had the heart to do that to him again.
 

[Guardsman1275]

How many points of AM do you want to ally in? if you have the points tyou could take a vendetta, though people WILL hate you for it. 3 twin linked lascannons on an av12 flyer with hover and a transport value of 6 allowing you to take a squad of scions in one

[Guardsman1275]

The airborne formation is really expensive for an allied detachment, here is the minimum cost with not SW and no upgrades

HQ

Comissar 25

MTCS 80

Troops

4x Scions 280

Dedicated Transports

5x Valkyie 625

 

Total points cost is 1010 points total money cost is USD 530 a little much for an allied force IMO

[Charlo]

Why ally in Marines for TFC when you have access to quad mortars! Check forge world, they are by and large better (4 shot S8 option that rerolls armour pen? Yesss)

[Pendent]

The quad mortars don't have any shells that ignore cover and more importantly it doesn't come with a Tech Marine Gunner so you can bolster the ruins. Don't get me wrong- the quad mortar looks amazing and I'm considering saying my TFC counts as a quad mortar next time I play.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

All ranges are measured from and to a the transport's hull if the model in question is embarked. The only thing you can not do is draw a line of sight from the transport (Coteaz can not do his Interceptor move when embarked). Bubble effects are fair game

Oh Right, like the FnP Bubble Priests used to give. Makes sense.

Another thing you may want to consider, especially if you are running mech, is armoured support and blobs. Leman Russ are pretty solid in this day of S6 and S7 spam. Wyvern take apart enemy infantry at range and the blobs hold your objectives. You may want to check out the Cadian Formations in the Montka book, seeing as you can take them as stand-alones in your army That way you will have less of a cheese spam and more of a balanced force.

I've got a ton of backlogged stuff. If I didn't have as much this would be way more appealing, But it is definitely something I can put in the back pocket for later. The model count is just too high for my liking at the moment.

If you want to do a Descend of Angels themed army, consider the Valkyrie Formation from the Scion book. Very thematic in a jumper-based BA army.

I've always fancied Hell-Jumpers.

I'm personally partial to taking the Storm Wing formation from the vanilla Marines codex. It's reasonably fluffy (really, why would the Blood Angels *not* have Storm Talons) and basically gives you automatic air superiority. Load the Storm Talons up with Typhoon launchers and you have a highly versatile unit that can do a lot of good work.

I agree and that bundle for $175 has caught my attention. Too much air support does get you the :cuss look unfortunately.

I've also been experimenting with the idea of taking an allied Space Marine detachment almost purely for the Thunderfire Cannon and taking a third detatchment for a Vindicare. Use the Techmarine gunner to bolster some ruins where you have the Vindcare and your Devastators camped out and they become pretty hard to dislodge. No idea how well this would work in an actual game as I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

​I love my devastators. Too bad Vanilla marines do it better. I'm also trying to keep detachments to a minimum. 40k has gotten very complex lately. In my eyes, each detachment over complicates things more with each additional one. Keep us posted on this though!

Edit: I have mixed feelings about the TFC. I've seen to many games where its effectiveness is non-existent and not enough others where it wins the day. Especially when the Tech Marine is focus fired, and killed.

The assasins in general are very, very solid. The better options are the Vindicare and the Culexus, both of which are taken as detachments of a single model, or in a detachment of all four assassins (this last night particularly reccommended). I've played my Vindicare a few times and he's been handy, though I've had a bit of trouble actually making his points back. There's a lot of value in killing off special weapons units that can be hard to put a price tag on, though. I also hear very postive things about the Culexus in a Stormraven.

To me points made back are subjective. This all depends on what you think points are worth right? The vindicare is somewhere around 140ish points right? If you're opponent spends turns shooting at him that = point investments = points made back, if the vindicare takes out special weapons that's points made back. In any case I do think both assassins are worth a hard look at least.

I agree that bringing a Knight fills in a lot of holes but they also feel highly cheesy. I have a Paladin and the first time I brought him out I was playing my work buddy's Imperial Guard. My Knight proceeded to kill most of his blob of Guardsmen in a single turn of shooting and then almost single-handedly murdered his tanks as well. I just haven't had the heart to do that to him again.

Agreed. I do want one though.

How many points of AM do you want to ally in? if you have the points tyou could take a vendetta, though people WILL hate you for it. 3 twin linked lascannons on an av12 flyer with hover and a transport value of 6 allowing you to take a squad of scions in one

I think a good solid allied detachment should be around the 500 < point mark. Yeah that Vendetta is nasty. I've faced several.

The airborne formation is really expensive for an allied detachment, here is the minimum cost with not SW and no upgrades

HQ

Comissar 25

MTCS 80

Troops

4x Scions 280

Dedicated Transports

5x Valkyie 625

Total points cost is 1010 points total money cost is USD 530 a little much for an allied force IMO

I really like this a lot. But I feel like this would be better as a primary detachment, and something to aim towards at a later project.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So I believe after careful consideration, I'm going to go with the Space Marine detachment of Librarian, Grav-Centurions, and Scouts with a drop pod. And I'm going to pick up both the Culexus & Vindicare Assassins. I may also take a hard look at 2 Storm Talons and Storm Raven formation.

[Karhedron]

Slightly late to the party but I guess your choice of allies will depend to a large extent on that opposition you are facing. Grav Cents will certainly help to put a dent in the MCs/GMCs that seem to be replacing tanks lately.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Slightly late to the party but I guess your choice of allies will depend to a large extent on that opposition you are facing. Grav Cents will certainly help to put a dent in the MCs/GMCs that seem to be replacing tanks lately.

All good no worries. If people weren't so skittish about the Imperial Knight I would get that hands down. The problem is, I like getting pick up games in. At least with the Grav-centurions they are a great shooty unit, but can simply be tied up in combat. I know that's down playing them a little, but they are much easier to deal with than a super heavy. I would need too many components for the imps, and I'm looking for a more immediate impact, rather than a hobby project. Lord knows I have enough of those lol. and really all I need is to buy 3 things. A box of centurions and 2 more drop pods.

[Moggimus]

You could get the shiny new leviathan dread with two cannon arms, that way you have almost as much ap3 firepower as a knight but without the cheese factor, also very tough. Basically just a slightly downgraded knight, and an awesome model. Only takes a heavy slot.

[LutherMax]

It sounds like you've made your decision (and a solid one) but I just thought I'd throw the ideas of Inquisition and Skitarii / Ad Mech into the mix for Allies - both fun and different.

[Frater Cornelius]

On the subject of Centurions, this is a list I have cooked up:

Hidden Content

Primary - BSF

Sanguinary Priest - Valor's Edge, JP

5 SG - 5 Swords/Bolters

10 Tacs - F/CF/HF, MB, Pod

Cassor

Pod (for Cassor)

5 RAS - 2 Meltas, JP, MB

5 RAS - 2 Meltas, JP, MB

Storm Raven - Typhoon/TLAC

Dante (Warlord)

 

Allies - UM

Tigurius

5 Scouts - 5 Bolters, LSS

Pod (for Cents)

3 Dev-Cents - 3 Bolter/Grav, Omniscope

 

1850

 

Capable of null-deploying and has reliable reserves between Tiggy re-rolling his own reserves and Dante having DoA. The only thing I dislike is that in some match-ups you are reliant on rolling Invisibility to win (like the Rhino + Grav Cannon spam Battle Company) due to the lack of long-ranged support the Preds.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It sounds like you've made your decision (and a solid one) but I just thought I'd throw the ideas of Inquisition and Skitarii / Ad Mech into the mix for Allies - both fun and different.

I love the books on AD Mech. But honestly I just can't get into the models. There is just something about them I don't like. I know they are super strong right now, they just aren't for me. 

 

 

On the subject of Centurions, this is a list I have cooked up:

Hidden Content

Primary - BSF

Sanguinary Priest - Valor's Edge, JP

5 SG - 5 Swords/Bolters

10 Tacs - F/CF/HF, MB, Pod

Cassor

Pod (for Cassor)

5 RAS - 2 Meltas, JP, MB

5 RAS - 2 Meltas, JP, MB

Storm Raven - Typhoon/TLAC

Dante (Warlord)

 

Allies - UM

Tigurius

5 Scouts - 5 Bolters, LSS

Pod (for Cents)

3 Dev-Cents - 3 Bolter/Grav, Omniscope

 

1850

 

Capable of null-deploying and has reliable reserves between Tiggy re-rolling his own reserves and Dante having DoA. The only thing I dislike is that in some match-ups you are reliant on rolling Invisibility to win (like the Rhino + Grav Cannon spam Battle Company) due to the lack of long-ranged support the Preds.

Pretty solid list. I love Cassor. He is awesome. overall I like the list. I just want to squeeze in some death company, and a Fragrioso.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

And then, being suuuuper late to the party, I find out about the sky hammer annihilation formation. Lol. That thing is awesome...oh well I bought my Centurions yesterday. All is good though

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

If you like the Scion models, I think they're a good way to go. Lots of people really scoff at them, but I have found them to be decent myself. And from a fluff perspective the fit nicely with BA in my view. They can deep strike so you don't need to do drop pod nonsense.

[jagunio]

You should try grey knights. They've got awesome librarians, dirt cheap termies and amazing dreadknights. I've recently added around 1k to my collection and must say, they're doing the job they're supposed to.

[Pendent]

The issue with Grey Knights is that they don't really plug any of the holes in our roster.

[Charlo]

Dread Knights help being a big MC, but other than that Yeah.

[jagunio]

They plug two holes. Three even. 1st - lack of warp charges. 2nd - lack of telepathy. 3rd - lack of psychic defense. You take lvl 3 librarian with adamantine will, and you get deny the witch on 4+, sometimes 3+, and always rerolling ones. Due to psychic hood he protects everything in 12 inch radius. Maybe it's not that strong as culexus, but it's still really decent. Maybe it depends on meta, but actually they've got pretty strong synergy with ba.

What are the things you miss in ba, that you feel you need to fill?

[LutherMax]

A lot of folks feel we lack AP3 ranged shooting, which Dakka Knights solve nicely.