Looking at some Ally Ideas.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think the issue with BA is twofold. One, the lack of means to deal with 2+ or T7 MCs and any GMC in a timely manner and without committing too many resources to it. Two, the lack of quantity of shooting. BA have good access to all kinds of solid weapon, but they are incapable to lay down sufficient cover fire for their melee troops. BA shooting is very surgical. This makes the melee game all the harder.

[Remtek]

Ravenguard are quite decent allies if you are on a $$ budget, but it depends on what kind of BA list you are running. You could for example run a libby conclave, 3 libbies with JP and put them into seperate Death Company Squads. RG get shrouded turn 1 as a chapter tactic and shrouded confers to the whole unit. 

 

That will go a long way helping them get into combat safely. Another option is Ravenguard tech marines, you can bolster a area terrain piece in your DZ and still have a 2+ cover save and the tech marine gets so much other free stuff for his points. Artificer armor, 2 wounds and a powerfist all for the same price as a libby. Slap on a JP and grab your 2+ cover when going last. 

 

It's not gonna break the game, but it makes Death Company much more viable as they have a fighting chanse vs shooty list. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The new raven guard stuff is pretty amazing. I've been looking at a few different options. I grabbed the squad of Centies because they are just so damned good.  And they really fit a huge gap in my own army. The Skyhammer Annihilation formation really is the ultimate frienemy  because it screams BA, and yet BA don't get it. But a white scars or raven guard detachment of that would be super amazing for how I like to play.

It is a super powerful formation that really shores up some weaknesses much like the grav-centurion detachment.

On the Grey Knight response:  Grey Knights to me are not something I would want to ally in. Unless I want to play DraigoStar. I would rather just play Grey Knights at that point because they are better all around. Well it is a push in melee. FC and I5 vs. Halberds, etc. They do bring a lot of psychic support to the board, and can hunt MC but if you've every played a Dreadknight or against one you know its weaknesses. The Culexus in a drop pod or rhino deals with a lot of the psychic support immediately and has pseudo invisibility for protection. He also comes in at a much cheaper price tag, both on the board and on the wallet. 

I'm going to toy around with a few different chapter tactics on the sky hammer formation, and with the grav-centurions. I just hope I don't get sucked into Red Marine Syndrome. 

[Charlo]

Combine that RG libby conclave with a Warlord with Veritas, then get the night fighting thing. Then you get the super advantage on your first turn!

[jagunio]

Are you playing with fw/ia models Immersturm? Because quite a lot of those issues can be solved by sicarian with schism of mars/fire raptor with war od murder.

[Frater Cornelius]

Are you playing with fw/ia models Immersturm? Because quite a lot of those issues can be solved by sicarian with schism of mars/fire raptor with war od murder.

German tournaments ban everything remotely interesting. Web-exclusives, WD and FW are all banned. I am surprised that Formations are legal. I mean, they did not exist in 5ed, so they must be evil. But making an effort to actually balance things out like the ITC? No, sir.

[appiah4]

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

[Karhedron]

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

Skyhammer cerainly has a lot of synergy with BAs. Grav Cents in a Pod are cheaper on paper but by the time you add in an HQ and a cheap Troop unit, it is not so clear cut. Skyhammer costs more points but none of it is tax. You get your relentless Grav cannons and/or multimeltas in pods. You get your DS and charge Assault squads to tie up the enemy while your BAs fly across the table.

 

A Grav-Cent allied detachment costs around 450-ish points depending on exactly which HQ you choose. With the Omniscope you can target 2 units per turn and they are a definite hard counter to Wraithknights and other big gribblies. A Tac or Scout squad with Objsec can come in handy if you have taken a Baal Strike force or one of our formations. Lastly the HQ slot grants access to some of the SM characters that are better than ours (Tigurius is a biggy here but even the improved Techmarine is no slouch).

 

Skyhammer starts at about 500 points although really I would advise making all squads 10-man for combat squading. This pushes the price up to ~800 points but really increases the Formation's utility and hitting power as it allows you attack up to 8 enemy units in one fell swoop. Granted you will probably not destroy all of them (in act the RAS are unlikely to do serious damage to front-line units) but you will make one heck of a mess of the enemy and disrupt their shooting long enough for your BAs to reach combat really start laying down the hurt in assault.

[appiah4]

I'd also surely take 10 man devastator squads but not for combat squadding.  Combat squadding is nice but I'd rather have concentrated and lasting firepower - hurting four units is not really my thing when I can annihilate two of them.  Also when you combat squad two things happen: 1. Every fourth wound is a heavy weapon gone, 2. Combined with the Drop Pods that's a lot of units kills for your opponent.  I'd keep the Assault squads 5 men only, and give them double flamers though, and use them as body shields for the devastators.

 

Not that I have any of the models for this, except a single Drop Pod.  My only Devastator squad is equipped with 3MLs and 1 LC.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

Skyhammer cerainly has a lot of synergy with BAs. Grav Cents in a Pod are cheaper on paper but by the time you add in an HQ and a cheap Troop unit, it is not so clear cut. Skyhammer costs more points but none of it is tax. You get your relentless Grav cannons and/or multimeltas in pods. You get your DS and charge Assault squads to tie up the enemy while your BAs fly across the table.

 

A Grav-Cent allied detachment costs around 450-ish points depending on exactly which HQ you choose. With the Omniscope you can target 2 units per turn and they are a definite hard counter to Wraithknights and other big gribblies. A Tac or Scout squad with Objsec can come in handy if you have taken a Baal Strike force or one of our formations. Lastly the HQ slot grants access to some of the SM characters that are better than ours (Tigurius is a biggy here but even the improved Techmarine is no slouch).

 

Skyhammer starts at about 500 points although really I would advise making all squads 10-man for combat squading. This pushes the price up to ~800 points but really increases the Formation's utility and hitting power as it allows you attack up to 8 enemy units in one fell swoop. Granted you will probably not destroy all of them (in act the RAS are unlikely to do serious damage to front-line units) but you will make one heck of a mess of the enemy and disrupt their shooting long enough for your BAs to reach combat really start laying down the hurt in assault.

 

 

I think around 500+ points is about right for a good solid allied detachment. Plus a scout squad gets BS 4; it should've always been that but they are a great "tax" for what you get. I agree that the SHA is pricey, but like you say, the rewards on paper are worth it.

I'd also surely take 10 man devastator squads but not for combat squadding.  Combat squadding is nice but I'd rather have concentrated and lasting firepower - hurting four units is not really my thing when I can annihilate two of them.  Also when you combat squad two things happen: 1. Every fourth wound is a heavy weapon gone, 2. Combined with the Drop Pods that's a lot of units kills for your opponent.  I'd keep the Assault squads 5 men only, and give them double flamers though, and use them as body shields for the devastators.

 

Not that I have any of the models for this, except a single Drop Pod.  My only Devastator squad is equipped with 3MLs and 1 LC.

I assume he's talking about combat squadding the Assault Marines.

 

Being able to take eviscerators on non characters is really great too. People down play it but being able to swing with multiple S8 models on a non specialist unit is pretty brilliant. And with being able to assault the turn you enter makes it much more appealing to take, even if it starts to get pricey. But still extra help dealing with armor and 2+ in combat is never bad, and they can't get sniped out in a challenge, which is double the goodness.

[appiah4]

I'd also surely take 10 man devastator squads but not for combat squadding.  Combat squadding is nice but I'd rather have concentrated and lasting firepower - hurting four units is not really my thing when I can annihilate two of them.  Also when you combat squad two things happen: 1. Every fourth wound is a heavy weapon gone, 2. Combined with the Drop Pods that's a lot of units kills for your opponent.  I'd keep the Assault squads 5 men only, and give them double flamers though, and use them as body shields for the devastators.

 

Not that I have any of the models for this, except a single Drop Pod.  My only Devastator squad is equipped with 3MLs and 1 LC.

I assume he's talking about combat squadding the Assault Marines.

 

Being able to take eviscerators on non characters is really great too. People down play it but being able to swing with multiple S8 models on a non specialist unit is pretty brilliant. And with being able to assault the turn you enter makes it much more appealing to take, even if it starts to get pricey. But still extra help dealing with armor and 2+ in combat is never bad, and they can't get sniped out in a challenge, which is double the goodness.

 

 

Well.. In that case, I really don't think the Assault Squads are worth maxing out at all.  I'd just keep them a MSUs with double flamers and a meltabomb each.  Honestly, I might not even charge with them on the turn they arrive, just use them to screen my devastators against counter assaults.  Cannon fodder with double template assault deterrants, really.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If you were taking Multi-Melta Devis why wouldn't you just pop a land raider/AV and then assault in with assault marines? Or if you cause the pinning check you get to re-roll to hit and to wound. No reason not to assault IMO. If you combat squad them you tie up multiple units, with a chance to keep units tied up for a turn of shooting, and have a chance to win in the opponents assault phase for a free movement and a charge in your following assault phase. There are a few ifs and buts in there but tactically it is solid.

Leadership on 3d6 and even if it is passed that unit still can't overwatch.

[appiah4]

If you were taking Multi-Melta Devis why wouldn't you just pop a land raider/AV and then assault in with assault marines? Or if you cause the pinning check you get to re-roll to hit and to wound. No reason not to assault IMO. If you combat squad them you tie up multiple units, with a chance to keep units tied up for a turn of shooting, and have a chance to win in the opponents assault phase for a free movement and a charge in your following assault phase. There are a few ifs and buts in there but tactically it is solid.

 

Leadership on 3d6 and even if it is passed that unit still can't overwatch.

 

When was the last time you've seen something come out of a Land Raider that a squad of Assault Marines could kill? 

 

My tactic would be pop the raider, put the ASM between Devs and contents, flame them and wait.  If they charge the ASM, the ASM will flame them again, and promptly die, letting the Devs fire their next volley at the contents.  If the enemy realizes the bait and decides to boot it, well - I got the LR kill, and now that quarter of the table is mine.

 

But that's just me.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

If you were taking Multi-Melta Devis why wouldn't you just pop a land raider/AV and then assault in with assault marines? Or if you cause the pinning check you get to re-roll to hit and to wound. No reason not to assault IMO. If you combat squad them you tie up multiple units, with a chance to keep units tied up for a turn of shooting, and have a chance to win in the opponents assault phase for a free movement and a charge in your following assault phase. There are a few ifs and buts in there but tactically it is solid.

 

Leadership on 3d6 and even if it is passed that unit still can't overwatch.

 

When was the last time you've seen something come out of a Land Raider that a squad of Assault Marines could kill? 

 

My tactic would be pop the raider, put the ASM between Devs and contents, flame them and wait.  If they charge the ASM, the ASM will flame them again, and promptly die, letting the Devs fire their next volley at the contents.  If the enemy realizes the bait and decides to boot it, well - I got the LR kill, and now that quarter of the table is mine.

 

But that's just me.

 

That was just an example. You don't see land raiders very often these days nor hammernators. Still, you can pop a vehicle/transport/shoot a squad and still assault. Being able to assault from deep strike albeit Turn 1 or 2 still gets you the alpha strike, and really helps especially against another shooty edition like this one.

[Karhedron]

 

When was the last time you've seen something come out of a Land Raider that a squad of Assault Marines could kill?

 

You don't necessarily need to kill them. Charging them prevents them shooting in their turn and assaulting a target of their choice.

 

Granted their will be occasions when not charging is the smartest thing to do. But the SHA is an Alpha strike and disruption force rolled into one tasty parcel, the bonuses for charging are usually going to be worth taking more often than not. This is particularly the case when allied to BAs. The purpose of those RAS squads is not to kill the enemy so much as to pin them in place and stop them shooting until the next turn when the Death Company jump up the field and lay down the hurt.

[Bartali]

 

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

Skyhammer cerainly has a lot of synergy with BAs. Grav Cents in a Pod are cheaper on paper but by the time you add in an HQ and a cheap Troop unit, it is not so clear cut. Skyhammer costs more points but none of it is tax. You get your relentless Grav cannons and/or multimeltas in pods. You get your DS and charge Assault squads to tie up the enemy while your BAs fly across the table.

 

A Grav-Cent allied detachment costs around 450-ish points depending on exactly which HQ you choose. With the Omniscope you can target 2 units per turn and they are a definite hard counter to Wraithknights and other big gribblies. A Tac or Scout squad with Objsec can come in handy if you have taken a Baal Strike force or one of our formations. Lastly the HQ slot grants access to some of the SM characters that are better than ours (Tigurius is a biggy here but even the improved Techmarine is no slouch).

 

Skyhammer starts at about 500 points although really I would advise making all squads 10-man for combat squading. This pushes the price up to ~800 points but really increases the Formation's utility and hitting power as it allows you attack up to 8 enemy units in one fell swoop. Granted you will probably not destroy all of them (in act the RAS are unlikely to do serious damage to front-line units) but you will make one heck of a mess of the enemy and disrupt their shooting long enough for your BAs to reach combat really start laying down the hurt in assault.

 

 

I don't think Skyhammer is that great.

 

The Assault Marines most certainly are a tax. The BA ones aren't very good in assault, let alone the vanilla ones you take in Skyhammer. 

Devs are good on the turn they land, but then are fragile with reduced shooting output on the turns after.

 

I'd probably just take Grav Centurions. Less impact on turn 1, but more likely to have continued impact throughout the game 

[appiah4]

 

 

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

Skyhammer cerainly has a lot of synergy with BAs. Grav Cents in a Pod are cheaper on paper but by the time you add in an HQ and a cheap Troop unit, it is not so clear cut. Skyhammer costs more points but none of it is tax. You get your relentless Grav cannons and/or multimeltas in pods. You get your DS and charge Assault squads to tie up the enemy while your BAs fly across the table.

 

A Grav-Cent allied detachment costs around 450-ish points depending on exactly which HQ you choose. With the Omniscope you can target 2 units per turn and they are a definite hard counter to Wraithknights and other big gribblies. A Tac or Scout squad with Objsec can come in handy if you have taken a Baal Strike force or one of our formations. Lastly the HQ slot grants access to some of the SM characters that are better than ours (Tigurius is a biggy here but even the improved Techmarine is no slouch).

 

Skyhammer starts at about 500 points although really I would advise making all squads 10-man for combat squading. This pushes the price up to ~800 points but really increases the Formation's utility and hitting power as it allows you attack up to 8 enemy units in one fell swoop. Granted you will probably not destroy all of them (in act the RAS are unlikely to do serious damage to front-line units) but you will make one heck of a mess of the enemy and disrupt their shooting long enough for your BAs to reach combat really start laying down the hurt in assault.

 

 

I don't think Skyhammer is that great.

 

The Assault Marines most certainly are a tax. The BA ones aren't very good in assault, let alone the vanilla ones you take in Skyhammer. 

Devs are good on the turn they land, but then are fragile with reduced shooting output on the turns after.

 

I'd probably just take Grav Centurions. Less impact on turn 1, but more likely to have continued impact throughout the game 

 

 

And you say that as if Grav centurions do not carry their own tax.

[Riot Earp]

The great thing with skyhammer is this rule.

Suppressive Fusillade: A unit targeted by this Formation’s Devastator Squads in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed the enemy is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

 

With 2 full 10 men Squads you can combat squad and suppress 4 Units.

Against tau and other shooty armies this is gold.

 

You can keep the skyhammer cheap with heavy bolters.

Will try 4 grav and 4 Heavy bolter in one of my next games.

[appiah4]

The problem with that is that it means nothing for armor, walkers, terminators, battlesuits, monstrous creatures, etc. i.e. almost everything you would want to pound with your devastators.  I would really not invest into 600 points of deep striking heavy weapons to suppress a bunch of MEQs.  I have much cheaper units that can more reliably deal with that..

[Bartali]

 

 

 

If I were to ally anything to my BAs it would certainly be a Skyhammer Formation detachment, painted as BA or Imperial Fists.

Skyhammer cerainly has a lot of synergy with BAs. Grav Cents in a Pod are cheaper on paper but by the time you add in an HQ and a cheap Troop unit, it is not so clear cut. Skyhammer costs more points but none of it is tax. You get your relentless Grav cannons and/or multimeltas in pods. You get your DS and charge Assault squads to tie up the enemy while your BAs fly across the table.

 

A Grav-Cent allied detachment costs around 450-ish points depending on exactly which HQ you choose. With the Omniscope you can target 2 units per turn and they are a definite hard counter to Wraithknights and other big gribblies. A Tac or Scout squad with Objsec can come in handy if you have taken a Baal Strike force or one of our formations. Lastly the HQ slot grants access to some of the SM characters that are better than ours (Tigurius is a biggy here but even the improved Techmarine is no slouch).

 

Skyhammer starts at about 500 points although really I would advise making all squads 10-man for combat squading. This pushes the price up to ~800 points but really increases the Formation's utility and hitting power as it allows you attack up to 8 enemy units in one fell swoop. Granted you will probably not destroy all of them (in act the RAS are unlikely to do serious damage to front-line units) but you will make one heck of a mess of the enemy and disrupt their shooting long enough for your BAs to reach combat really start laying down the hurt in assault.

 

 

I don't think Skyhammer is that great.

 

The Assault Marines most certainly are a tax. The BA ones aren't very good in assault, let alone the vanilla ones you take in Skyhammer. 

Devs are good on the turn they land, but then are fragile with reduced shooting output on the turns after.

 

I'd probably just take Grav Centurions. Less impact on turn 1, but more likely to have continued impact throughout the game 

 

 

And you say that as if Grav centurions do not carry their own tax.

 

 

Normally the scouts is the only tax, you'll want the HQ slot for the Librarian (Tiggy, Loth etc)

[appiah4]

 

Normally the scouts is the only tax, you'll want the HQ slot for the Librarian (Tiggy, Loth etc)

 

 

Well, seeing as dictating wants is fair game, you'll want the Assault Squads so there's no tax on the Skyhammer formation at all!

[Remtek]

I have not played with Skyhammer, but i have played against both. I'd much rather face skyhammer then cents because you have to dedicate a lot of resources to kill the cents. Reguluar devs with range 24 weapons are often really easy to deal with. Skyhammer with range 48 weapons combat squadded really utilize the 3d6 pinning rule, can pod safely and cover the whole board.

[Karhedron]

I have not played with Skyhammer, but i have played against both. I'd much rather face skyhammer then cents because you have to dedicate a lot of resources to kill the cents.

Especially Iron Hand Cents with a Sanguinary Priest Auspex. 4+ FNP and -1 to cover saves are very tasty.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Threadcromancy: In light of purchasing 3 new Imperial Knights for a possible Baronial court, I've been looking at one or two as allies. Its looking like it could be in the 800+ points range for two, which would indeed cut dramatically into the BA goodness, but part of me really thinks 2 is the way to go right. Thoughts?

I think I could still do what I want to do, and really put pressure on my opponent with 1. What variants do you guys like the most/recommend?

I like the idea of a Crusader with Battlecannon and stunner shoulder, I've also looked at the Gallant with a Melta Shoulder as well. That Missile Launcher on the carapace looks damn fine as well. 

Edit: Or jut take Sir Gerantias. As he's a colossal monster.

[CaptainHelion]

Gerantus gets my first vote. But the Big G aside, I think the Crusader with Battlecannon, Avenger Bolt cannon, and the krak missile pod is a solid option, bringing as it does a COLOSSAL amount of ranged AP3, something we Angels do lack for.

On the other hand, giving up S-D in cc isn't exactly something to be done lightly. Knights are the only real source of easy S-D we have available. Even with the nerf 7th ed gave S-D, it's still a brutal rule. Without a Reaper Chainsword, he's still striking at S10 AP2 (thanks to Smash), and can stomp, so maybe the loss of S-D is okay for you. He doesn't lose any attacks, and with two long range weapons, he's probably not going to be hunting down deathstars to munch in cc.

If you want the S-D, then the Warden is probably a solid bet. Avenger bolt cannon, and your choice of either the Reaper Chainsword, or the Thunderstrike Gauntlet. If you're not looking to heading toe-to-toe with other knights, the Thunderstrike Gauntlet could be hilarious fun. Sure, you're striking at I1, but you were already going after Wraithknights, and you might be able to throw its enormous corpse at its friends!