xNH Lion 12x Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Does anyone have anything to say on the friends or rivals of the Dark Angels? I think everyone knows about the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels and their feud/respect/love-hate/brotherly rivalry relationship. And I think everyone knows of the Dark Angels' distrust of the Inquisition and all of that. And I think everyone knows that the Dark Angels don't like anyone getting in their business, but what about all of the other main First Founding Chapters and even the other Successors, something specific for each? I'm not too worried about CSM 'cause the Dark Angels obviously hate them, so I will leave them off my list, but any interesting bonus is always great. White Scars - Space Wolves - Answered, sort of... Imperial Fists - Blood Angels - Iron Hands - I'm going to guess there is some distrust because of their favoritism of the Adepus Mechanicus and all of that Ultramarines - I'm going to guess the relationship isn't good for some reason along the lines of Guilliman breaking the Legion apart Salamanders - Raven Guard - Anything you can speculate on is cool, anything from Wikis is good, any book quotes are great. Edit: Grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Something that was in older fluff but has not been noted recently is the Dark Angels strong dislike against Abhumans. They would not side with any Guard unit that had Ogryns or Ratlings in their ranks. This could be applied to those chapters with noticable deficiencies in their gene code. I am looking at the Salamanders and Raven Guard here. It would also apply to the Space Wolves but they have prior history that both compliments and overrides their dislike of mutants. This could also go along with what you noted for the Iron Hands since the desire to be rid of the flesh could be seen as an aberration that should not be tolerated. For some pure speculation, I could see a rivalry between the Dark Angels and the White Scars. Especially when it comes to the Ravenwing. Both are mobile forced but one is a Company while the other is the better part of the Chapter. The Blood Angels are just as good at hiding their shame as the Dark Angels. They may work together but keep each other at a comfortable distance which may make them oddly aimiable to each other. The Ultramarines purist belief in the Codex Astartes may be the sticking point between them and the Dark Angels with their two deviant companies, but they would not be above working with other chapters to achieve victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think the relation with any of the First founding you mentioned is probably better than with the SW, but probably not by much. DA are aloof and never had any special ties with any Legion during the great Crusade and I imagine after the Fall of Caliban, relations didn't get any better, quite the contrary. So basically there are no friendChapters to the Unforgiven, we are our own best friends but also there is no rivalry like the one with SW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egon1six Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Food for thought. We did share a codex with the blood Angels a long time ago... I wonder if GW ever intended to flesh that out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I think the DA/BA joint Codex was more because they were both Angels and polar opposites of play, not for some special reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 In regards to the OP's speculation about the relationship with the Ultramarines: Guilliman's breakdown of the Legions probably doesn't have much to do with the situation. When the Second Founding was proposed the Dark Angels were on Guilliman's side from the beginning. The Dark Angels had just lost their Primarch and were doing anything they could to keep anyone looking to closely into his disappearance and the destruction of Caliban. This was also during the Scouring when loyalist marines were doing anything they could to hunt down and kill any traitors they could find. The Dark Angels didn't want to be labeled as such, thus the reason for many of the decisions that would not make so much sense during the 41st millennium. As for relations with other chapters: Most of the time Black Library and Games Workshop in general can't resist exploring the same old tired problems between the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. There are few references to their meeting with other chapters. What I have seen from them include a meeting between Kor'sarro Khan and Sammael in which a Fallen is found, the Ravenwing do their own thing, and leave the White Scars hanging. At the end Kor'sarro Khan isn't too happy. The Pandorax stories show the interaction between Grey Knights and Dark Angels. Most of that ended up being a conflict over who's in charge of the warzone between Azrael and Draigo. I doubt the Dark Angels would ever submit to a mindwipe from the Grey Knights or Inquisition. And then we're left wondering what the Black Templars suspect when one of their crusade fleets disappeared after departing a warzone they shared with the Dark Angels. Beyond that we're probably going to have the same conflicts with other chapters over Dark Angels leaving warzones to pursue their own agendas. Any chapter that has experienced this will probably view the Dark Angels with distrust. And don't forget that a space marine chapter has a longer memory than any imperial guard regiment, planetary governor, and many other institutions of the Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xNH Lion 12x Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 So, is the general concensus that the Dark Angels really have a problem with no one, everyone just doesn't like them and distrusts them? And then the thing with the Space Wolves and the Inquisition.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 So, is the general concensus that the Dark Angels really have a problem with no one, everyone just doesn't like them and distrusts them? And then the thing with the Space Wolves and the Inquisition.... I would actually have to bring up a point that in Know no Fear it shows that Guiliman has very deep respect for The Lion and also Lion shows that he likes Sanguinius and Guiliman, to a certain degree atleast. I would have to guess that the relations with this 2 chapters/legions are better than with others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xNH Lion 12x Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 So, is the general concensus that the Dark Angels really have a problem with no one, everyone just doesn't like them and distrusts them? And then the thing with the Space Wolves and the Inquisition.... I would actually have to bring up a point that in Know no Fear it shows that Guiliman has very deep respect for The Lion and also Lion shows that he likes Sanguinius and Guiliman, to a certain degree atleast. I would have to guess that the relations with this 2 chapters/legions are better than with others What about Guilliman's "Dauntless Few," if he says he likes the Lion, why isn't he included? I know what the answer probably is, that the Dark Angels now have their own agenda and don't really care about anything else and the Lion is basically kinda dead, but that still stands, I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 The reason Dark Angels aren't too keen on the Space Wolves is because they believe our Primarch's honour was impinged upon by Russ. Long story short: there was a fight between the Executioner and the Lion. In the end, Russ started to laugh, El'Johnson thought it was about him, and then the Space Wolves' Primarch was laid out cold. An honour duel is fought every time the Dark Angels take to the field beside the Space Wolves. They don't like the Inquisition because, you know, questions. Also, the Lion is not dead- he's just missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnerBeta Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I would suggest simply checking the HH allies matrix as there wasn't really any fluff to indicate a change in relations since then with the exception of their opinion of the traitors. They still don't like Space Wolves because of their shared history, like Salamanders because everyone likes them and don't particularly care about the rest as DA keep to themselves and care only about their own affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The reason Dark Angels aren't too keen on the Space Wolves is because they believe our Primarch's honour was impinged upon by Russ. Long story short: there was a fight between the Executioner and the Lion. In the end, Russ started to laugh, El'Johnson thought it was about him, and then the Space Wolves' Primarch was laid out cold. No, he didn't think the laugh was about him. Russ was "laughing off the incident" (as if it were no great matter) as a way of saving face for needlessly attacking his brother. The Lion was simply insulted that Russ would treat the whole idiotic incident as if it were nothing (The Lion is not one for such pointless shananigans). They were there to do a job, which was not to salve Russ' bruised ego. Russ was not in a postion to get the job done, so The Lion got it done. Get it done, and move on to the next task; i.e. serve the Emperor and humanity - the purpose of their existence. Russ couldn't accept that he wasn't the one to put the final nail in the coffin of the planetary governor, and so he got served after selfishly wasting the time of TWO Legions; the point further being emphasized by the Dark Angels leaving and not wasting any further time there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The Dauntless Few I see a bit differently. In Unremembered Empire there is a bit about Girlyman being jealous of the Lion (if only a bit) because of the First Legion etc. I would say he might have seen the First as a bit of a one up game or perhaps not needing the help. Honestly though Unremembered Empire had some great bits about the Lion and the First in my opinion. Pure speculation but I believe the First would get along well with Imperial Fists as long as they didn't get too nosy. Anymore I almost try and look at the First Legion pre Heresy instead of Post. So much has been influenced by the Fallen and the Hunt it is almost as if the Legion has lost its way. This is why I picked them up in the first place. A lost (and Damned?) Legion fighting to fix things and digging a hole deeper every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Something that was in older fluff but has not been noted recently is the Dark Angels strong dislike against Abhumans. Wasn't it Mutants in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 What about Guilliman's "Dauntless Few," if he says he likes the Lion, why isn't he included? Because it has nothing to do with personal feelings, or mere friendship. “... the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. ... Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy.” Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Know No Fear.” iBooks. Guilliman is talking about primarchs who can be relied upon to do what they're expected to do. Not just reliable, but predictable as well. He's almost certainly talking about allies he can incorporate into tactics and strategies that rely on synergy and cohesion. It's obvious the Lion and Guilliman respect one another. Point of fact, Guilliman actually looks up to the Lion and admires him. But again, this isn't about personal feelings or friendship. The Lion, unfortunately, is taciturn and aloof. He's a closed book. He's not predictable, he's not easily understood, and he's not keen to share his insight. That makes him a wild card in the eyes of a master administrator and planner like Guilliman. He's simply not someone that Guilliman could build plans around. That's not to say that the I and XIII Legions couldn't do even better than any combination of the Ultramarines and any one of the "Dauntless Few" Legions; it just means that Guilliman would not be able to conclusively plan and simulate any scenario involving his forces and the Lion's. For an individual who focuses so much on the theoretical, that's simply not good enough. Personally, I find it less surprising that Guilliman didn't count the Lion in that list as I am that he included Russ or Ferrus Manus*. Or, for that matter, that Vulkan wasn't included. * Where Ferrus Manus is concerned, I wonder if Abnett just felt he was in need of "rehabilitation". Manus had been made to look like such a thick-headed, ill-tempered, and short-sighted individual in Fulgrim and other Heresy works, and he certainly benefited from being cast in a more favorable light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xNH Lion 12x Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 What about Guilliman's "Dauntless Few," if he says he likes the Lion, why isn't he included? Because it has nothing to do with personal feelings, or mere friendship. “... the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. ... Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy.” Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Know No Fear.” iBooks. Guilliman is talking about primarchs who can be relied upon to do what they're expected to do. Not just reliable, but predictable as well. He's almost certainly talking about allies he can incorporate into tactics and strategies that rely on synergy and cohesion. It's obvious the Lion and Guilliman respect one another. Point of fact, Guilliman actually looks up to the Lion and admires him. But again, this isn't about personal feelings or friendship. The Lion, unfortunately, is taciturn and aloof. He's a closed book. He's not predictable, he's not easily understood, and he's not keen to share his insight. That makes him a wild card in the eyes of a master administrator and planner like Guilliman. He's simply not someone that Guilliman could build plans around. That's not to say that the I and XIII Legions couldn't do even better than any combination of the Ultramarines and any one of the "Dauntless Few" Legions; it just means that Guilliman would not be able to conclusively plan and simulate any scenario involving his forces and the Lion's. For an individual who focuses so much on the theoretical, that's simply not good enough. Personally, I find it less surprising that Guilliman didn't count the Lion in that list as I am that he included Russ or Ferrus Manus*. Or, for that matter, that Vulkan wasn't included. * Where Ferrus Manus is concerned, I wonder if Abnett just felt he was in need of "rehabilitation". Manus had been made to look like such a thick-headed, ill-tempered, and short-sighted individual in Fulgrim and other Heresy works, and he certainly benefited from being cast in a more favorable light. I kinda knew that, but.... And yeah, by that reasoning, how is Russ reliable? Or at the very least, how is he more reliable than the Lion? Or maybe I just don't know how the Lion is not reliable. I know he is very stubborn and all of that, but how would that make him not reliable? The Lion is a good strategist and is supposed to be smart and all of that, and I am just rambling and kinda off topic at this point, but again, how is he not reliable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I kinda knew that, but.... And yeah, by that reasoning, how is Russ reliable? Or at the very least, how is he more reliable than the Lion? Or maybe I just don't know how the Lion is not reliable. I know he is very stubborn and all of that, but how would that make him not reliable? The Lion is a good strategist and is supposed to be smart and all of that, and I am just rambling and kinda off topic at this point, but again, how is he not reliable? The difference is that Russ is known as The Emperor's lap puppy, ever faithful ,obedient trained dog. Lion is complete opposite, he is aloof and secretive, did not trust anyone even during the good times. No one could predict what would he do or how he would do it. He is a wild card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 A good example of what I'm talking about is the campaign the Lion and Russ waged against the Tyrant of Dulan. Having been personally insulted by said tyrant, Russ claimed the right to assault his citadel. The Lion had his own ideas, and attacked before Russ - without giving his brother/VI Legion any warning regarding his intent. The Lion and the Dark Angels were clearly capable of taking this objective without assistance. It does not appear the campaign was threatened by their unilateral action. An older edition of Codex: Space Wolves does indicate the Lion's preemptive assault actually did leave Russ's warriors exposed, and that this led to them suffering casualties... but most other sources imply it was only Russ's pride that was injured. Either way, this anecdote serves to show that the Lion is not necessarily a "team player", and can behave in an unpredictable manner. Russ himself may not conduct himself in a civilized, reasonable manner (it's up for debate to what extent this is part of an act), but he nonetheless does so in a way that can be anticipated - and controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Either way, this anecdote serves to show that the Lion is not necessarily a "team player", and can behave in an unpredictable manner. Russ himself may not conduct himself in a civilized, reasonable manner (it's up for debate to what extent this is part of an act), but he nonetheless does so in a way that can be anticipated - and controlled. The Lion's actions were not unpredictable at all. The Lion is a team player - he just plays for The Emperor's team, not Russ', his own, nor that of any other Primarch. His duty comes first before all else. Addressing an insult does not precede one's duty. Russ didn't see it that way. Being a Primarch and leading a Space Marine Legion is not about accolades, hubris, satisfying one's ego, or anything else. The Primarchs' oaths were to serve The Emperor/Humanity, not their own ends. Russ put himself first, insulted and provoked The Lion, and The Lion very rightly and justly bitch-slapped Russ for doing both. Russ was like a petulant child who didn't get what he wanted, so he threw a tantrum. Then he suffered the consequences. Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9obgyYB1IU Yep, that's Russ there in the red; The Lion in the blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xNH Lion 12x Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 So, he is unreliable because he's not a team player. But that is because he serves only the Emperor, so he doesn't care to go along with anyone else, as he sees his own methods as the most effective and goes through with his plans without anyone else, even if they don't like it, it hurts them, both, or happens to work out for everyone. Then the Lion moves onto the next task for the Emperor. And that is why Guilliman does not call him reliable, but still admires him. Does that sound right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Sounds pretty close to it to me. He's got his way of doing it or the highway (most primarchs tht I've read seem this way) and while they admiteffective methods they do not "like it." Russ is unapologetic and will tell you how he's going to kill you. The Lion is all about the way he does it. Dorn is about following orders and defending it all. Guilliman has his way and is a bit of the "golden child" syndrome going. The Lion s an egnima that no one really understands yet the Emperor tolerates his methods in that he's not been bad nor has he done anything but serve however the way he does it is entirely up to him. The Khan was such a mystery that he wouldn't even follow the general strategy of the Emperor and was such a friend of Horus that no one really "knew" what he was going to decide. The Lion found strategy and then went with whatever worked for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to make a "who was right?" argument in regards to the Lion and Russ. I'm focusing on the Lion's insular nature, and how that affected his interaction with a peer in a war-time situation. As far we know, Guilliman could have considered Russ to be an "open book". Whatever egotistical idiosyncrasies he may have had, perhaps Guilliman saw them as predictable. The reward of employing Russ thus outweighed the risks, because Guilliman knew when and where to use him. The Lion, on the other hand? Could Guilliman pretend to know how, when, and where to employ a primarch so adept at keeping his cards to himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Fully agree with the above. Being as Guilliman was such a planner having a known "theoretical" is better than a "theoretical theoretical." What I mean by that is you have Russ and you know what you get with him. Point click watch the fur fly, (I do play Space Wolves those easily offended) versus the Lion you have no idea. He may decide to wait the enemy out, kill off high command any number of military strategies that the Ultramarines could not count on. Why? Because the Lion and the First were out to get it done. They really could careless of honors and laurels. They were the First Legion they had all that pretty much in the bag by the time the others started no need for frills and all. You did this campaign? Great we did one of those five thousand years ago welcome to the club. Not to say they were snobby about it just more of a "get it done and move on" attitude. However the possible myriad of random ways to get it done left Gulliman with little ways to plan his "theoretical." Added that no one ever knew what was on the Lion's mind (well robes were a thing we know that much) and we have too much of a "wild card" for Mr. Plan It All. Did he respect the Lion? I think they all did. Having 20,000 of the First Legion in orbit in Drop Pods and believing that they were enough to possibly take the planet with Guilliman and his Ultramarines on it shows how much respect the First received. Also just to throw this out there. I believe the Lion and Russ had their fight and after a time became vast friends and respected each other. Each Legion probably had a good grudge but I doubt they "hated" each other as many believe and claim. Kind of like that fight you have between friends who are young and then they rub it in each others face and try and one up the other but are great friends the rest of their lives? Similar to that. Many a problem can be settled b a fisticuffs out front by the flagpole if you will. DoC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 So, he is unreliable because he's not a team player. But that is because he serves only the Emperor, so he doesn't care to go along with anyone else, as he sees his own methods as the most effective and goes through with his plans without anyone else, even if they don't like it, it hurts them, both, or happens to work out for everyone. Then the Lion moves onto the next task for the Emperor. And that is why Guilliman does not call him reliable, but still admires him. Does that sound right? No, The Lion works with others just fine. He is simply right to not pander to Russ. As to "The Lion and the Wolf"/"The Wolf and the Lion" stories, which one do we really think is true? That the tactial genuis Primarch left an allied flank open, or that an insulted and furious Primarch got upset that he didn't get his vengence and then lashed out? It is obvious which story is true. To put it another way, if you have just found a half eaten corpse, would you come to the conclusion that a man you found at the scene of the crime, who was admittedly hungry because he had no money to buy lunch that day, obviously did the deed because you have no evidence that the cannibal, who you also found at the scene of the crime, was hungry? I don't think so. And Guilliman is not sure if The Lion can be relied upon because he is not sure if The Lion is with Horus or with The Emperor at that time, because nobody has heard from The Lion until he shows up. Then Guilliman has his answer. It is kind of important not to leave that context out when citing your example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 If only Lion gave the order to Captain Stenius to burn Macragge, bear in mind that the First Legion also has one of the dedicated warfleet among the legions...Any Dark Angels would have been proud that 20,000 of them can lay waste to this Imperium Secundus. Malcador doubted the First but the Emperor trusts the First, making the burden of shame felt by the First even heavier.Khan, a warhawk, the wild card that not even Emperor, Horus, Malcador can predict and he did not even care lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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