Dark Angel-Other Legion Relationships?

[Phoebus]

shabbadoo,

 

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly or not, but Guilliman's selection for his "Dauntless Few" list had nothing to do with not knowing where the Lion's loyalties lay. That list had been hashed out before the Heresy began, no?

[Grimdarkness]

I think if either Dorn or El'Jonson could bend they may have got on pretty well.  

[shabbadoo]

shabbadoo,

 

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly or not, but Guilliman's selection for his "Dauntless Few" list had nothing to do with not knowing where the Lion's loyalties lay. That list had been hashed out before the Heresy began, no?

I refer to Guillimans's thoughts in The Unremembered Empire. As to The Dauntless Few, it is a list of the Primarchs and their Legions Guilliman sees as a best complimenting his own. Guilliman is a strategist, and sees his Legion, combined with any one of The Dauntless Few, as being able to accomplish any task.  It is a tactical appraisal, not an insult to thirteen other Primarchs/Legions.  How do I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt? Because Guilliman implicitly trusted Horus - even vociferously supported him for Warmaster because he was, in Guillimans's view, the best of them - and yet Horus and the Luna Wolves/ Sons of Horus are not among The Dauntless Few. Would combining forces with the best of the best not be a good idea, or is Guilliman just an idiot?  Well, he's obviously not an idiot.  It is just that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus don't quite fight in the way that The Dauntless Few Legions do, nor do any of the other Legions not on the list.  And so The Dauntless Few list isn't a "People I trust:" list at all, as Guilliman, "The Statesman", wouldn't be idiot enough to put out such a list anyways.  The Dauntless Few is a list of Primarchs/Legions Guiliman sees a being the most complimentary to him and his Ultrmarines, nothing more.

 

As to trusting the Lion, Guilliman does offer to put him at the head of Imperium Secondus. "Hmmm.  I don't trust you....so I think you should be in charge of everything." (not an actual quote, mind you, just me throwing out imagined dialogue :D) are sentiments at odds with one another.  Of course we know that Guilliman simply talks to The Lion before that offer is made, as they come to know one another's minds well enough simply by talking. They'll probably cram in another dozen or more books into the HH series before stuff hits the fan on Terra, and who know which one (if any) will pick up where The Unremembered Empire leaves off.  After thousands of HH pages, many of the Primarchs remain rather underdeveloped.  I hope they include more of the thoughts of the Primarchs as they move towards the culmination of the series.

 

I think the idea that The Lion isn't team player stems mostly from later Dark Angels lore.  It certainly isn't from the HH series, because that series is all about a time when The Lion barely is in any situation where he is given the chance to work with someone else. He did that all during the main Crusade period, but that is not what is being focused on in the HH. What the focus is on is The Lion being sent by Horus to the arse end of the universe, and his trevails to get back when he finds out that treachery is afoot.  Well, The Lion has returned, and what does he immediately do? Does he say,  "@#$! all y'all. I'm doing it by myself, my way!", and then leave? Does nobody put their trust in him?  No, he and others do exactly what you say they don't do -  he plays on the team, and they pass him the ball.

[xNH Lion 12x]

We have established that the Lion does what he wants and how he wants, but shabbadoo, how do the Lion's methods not match Guilliman's? Just having a Deathwing and Ravenwing doesn't really do it as an answer for me.

 

Edit: Actually, that seems contradictory, and along with thinking about your last response, not really applicable anymore, but answer that, if you want.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

We have established that the Lion does what he wants and how he wants, but shabbadoo, how do the Lion's methods not match Guilliman's? Just having a Deathwing and Ravenwing doesn't really do it as an answer for me.

 

Edit: Actually, that seems contradictory, and along with thinking about your last response, not really applicable anymore, but answer that, if you want.

Because you can't order the Lion around. The Lion does what the Lion thinks is best. Sure, he can be reasonable, but he won't be reasonable enough in Guilliman's eyes to be able to let Guilliman take the lead.

He is the Lord of the First Legion, a Legion that helped liberating Terra, giving them any roles that they don't want would be akin to a slight.

[shabbadoo]

Actually, The Lion can be ordered around.  The Lion will work with whomever, and will take orders.  Horus is given the mantle of Warmaster, and the authority to literally speak with The Emperor's voice, so when Horus orders The Lion off on wild what is unkowingly a wild goose chase of sorts, he goes, because it is his duty to do so. Then we have the others, who are not the Warmaster/The Emperor.  They are The Lion's equals, and he very much treats with them as such.  He dosn't belittle them, nor does he pander to them, but nor does he trust that their motives are as pure as his. The Primarchs know each other. They know what each other's strengths and weaknesses are, and they are extremely intelligent on top of that - even Russ (though it is not so obvious) and, scarily enough, Angron (though he is hampered by the Btucher's Nails).  They all realize that Sanguinius is the best face to put on anything.  The all know that The Lion and Guilliman are the best tacticians in a general sense, but both are not so full of themselves that they wouldn't seek the advice of Dorn if, say, they were planning the best overall strategy to break or survive a siege, or to ask Sanguinius for his input on launching an over-arching plan of attack involving assaults. They are not at odds with one another, and they are not small children all demanding to play with the same toy at the same time, and damn the others.  They all understand this, though some of the authors do a somewhat poor job of keying in on it.  I guess that is enough of the vaguely on topic stuff though, so more about the on topic then.

 

The Dark Angels of the present are very different from their forebears.  Where once the Dark Angels were as open as any Chapter (though not seen to be so friendly due to their Primarch's taciturn nature), now they are closed off to a great degree, and this affects their dealings with everyone, without exception.  But there is no overt hostility between the Dark Angels and other Chapters. They are not even hostile to the Space Wolves; their disagreements of the past now wrapped up in honor duels that would seem to have more to do with tradition and mutual respect than any sense of righting some ancient wrong. The duels seem to me to be more of a formality when the two Chapters meet, and I don't see there being any "You totally got me, bro! Let us drink!" back slapping moments between them, just taking care of the business at hand.

 

The Dark Angels of the present are much more of an enigma than ever before, and when a group becomes too insular, such that nobody really knows what they are thinking, people tend to start asking questions, if not get somewhat conerned or even nervous.  The Dark Angels continue to annihilate the enemies of The Emperor, and they let such actions speak for themselves, but their agenda to pursue The Fallen leads them into all sort of problems with others, the most notable of them currently being the Black Templars and the Inquisition.  The Chapter deosn't seem to have any problems with others, though their lack of concern with being seen as friendly surely isn't helping in how others perceive them.  I don't see the Dark Angels being overly friendly to anyone, other than to other Unforgiven Chapters.  With others, they will keep everything about the current business that has brought them together.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, when I meant can't ordered around I didn't mention the two notable exceptions, Houses being Warmaster and the Emperor.;)

[xNH Lion 12x]

But Horus is dead, and the Emperor might as well be dead.

 

Edit: DYAC.

[Phoebus]

I refer to Guillimans's thoughts in The Unremembered Empire. As to The Dauntless Few, it is a list of the Primarchs and their Legions Guilliman sees as a best complimenting his own. Guilliman is a strategist, and sees his Legion, combined with any one of The Dauntless Few, as being able to accomplish any task. It is a tactical appraisal, not an insult to thirteen other Primarchs/Legions.

This isn't about insults, though; it's about statements of fact. The Lion is insular and secretive. This is beyond dispute. Me offering that Guilliman doesn't include him in the his "Dauntless Few" because of those traits is nothing more than conjecture on my part... but it has a basis on logic. If, as a commander, you had to choose between knowns and unknowns, I posit you would opt for the former.

How do I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt? Because Guilliman implicitly trusted Horus - even vociferously supported him for Warmaster because he was, in Guillimans's view, the best of them - and yet Horus and the Luna Wolves/ Sons of Horus are not among The Dauntless Few. Would combining forces with the best of the best not be a good idea, or is Guilliman just an idiot? Well, he's obviously not an idiot.

With respect, I think this is a poor example. I would offer that Guilliman's theorem pre-supposes that the Ultramarines and the "Dauntless Few" would be operating as equals... or with Guilliman himself in command. His list thus doesn't include Horus and his Luna Wolves because, let's face it, Guilliman wouldn't be in charge and would not necessarily even be responsible for the strategy of the campaign.

And so The Dauntless Few list isn't a "People I trust:" list at all, as Guilliman, "The Statesman", wouldn't be idiot enough to put out such a list anyways. The Dauntless Few is a list of Primarchs/Legions Guiliman sees a being the most complimentary to him and his Ultrmarines, nothing more.

I'm sorry, but this ignores what is flat-out stated in Know No Fear. Dependability, predictability, and trustworthiness are the three specific traits that Marius Gage cites in describing what qualified the "Dauntless Few".

As to trusting the Lion, Guilliman does offer to put him at the head of Imperium Secondus. "Hmmm. I don't trust you....so I think you should be in charge of everything." (not an actual quote, mind you, just me throwing out imagined dialogue ) are sentiments at odds with one another.

That's a completely different situation, though. Guilliman made his "Dauntless Few" list during the Great Crusade, when the question essentially was, 'Which of these other 17 primarchs can I "depend upon to do what they were made to do”?'

During the events of The Unremembered Empire, Guilliman and Dolor speak of the possibility of installing the Lion as head of Imperium Secundus, but the former qualifies that he cannot do so when he doesn't know his character or his agenda. When he does appoint him commander of the Imperium Secundus, that decision is made within the context that there are three loyal primarchs stuck in the Ruinstorm and they need to work together. The alternative would have been Guilliman and Sanguinius aligning with one another, and leaving the Lion out to do... what exactly? That's not a viable course of action.

I think the idea that The Lion isn't team player stems mostly from later Dark Angels lore. It certainly isn't from the HH series, because that series is all about a time when The Lion barely is in any situation where he is given the chance to work with someone else. He did that all during the main Crusade period, but that is not what is being focused on in the HH. What the focus is on is The Lion being sent by Horus to the arse end of the universe, and his trevails to get back when he finds out that treachery is afoot. Well, The Lion has returned, and what does he immediately do? Does he say, "@#$! all y'all. I'm doing it by myself, my way!", and then leave? Does nobody put their trust in him? No, he and others do exactly what you say they don't do - he plays on the team, and they pass him the ball.

Sure, it stems from later lore, but the traits ascribed to him in that material - secrecy, an insular and taciturn character - are all there. Those traits are also confirmed - insofar as his legion is concerned - in recent Forge World material, as well. Likewise, his relationship with Guilliman is hardly a smooth one. The Lion arrives on Macragge with pomp and circumstance, puts on a public face, and all the while has tens of thousands of Dark Angels ready to unleash hell on his brother's capital. A great deal of difficult discourse and development ensues before the Lion "joins the team".

[Phoebus]

Sorry, I forgot to post a reply to this!

 

Where once the Dark Angels were as open as any Chapter (though not seen to be so friendly due to their Primarch's taciturn nature), ...

I question this. I think it's fair to say that the character of the Dark Angels Legion was undoubtedly affected by the ethos and customs of the Calibanite Order, which drew heavily on ritualized mysteries and secrets. The Unremembered Empire, for instance, makes mention of visible and invisible hierarchies and a secret structure.

 

Likewise, Gav Thorpe offered this take on the Alpha Legion infiltrating and manipulating the Dark Angels in this post on his website: 

 

... The Dark Angels’ highly traditional and sectarian nature made them ‘immune’ to intrusions by the warrior lodges and I would say has acted as a similar buffer to infiltration and manipulation by the Alpha Legion.

Thorpe's thoughts seem to follow Abnett's, thematically speaking. I think that's a significant qualifier he's offered, considering the prowess the Alpha Legion has exhibited in infiltrating other Legiones Astartes. Now, Thorpe's prose may not be universally admired, but his influence on the lore cannot be denied.

 

There are other examples, as well.

 

Given what we observe of the Lion's character and what other characters (the most prominent of which was Guilliman) have to say about him, and given the known fact that the character of the primarchs invariably shaped the character of their legion, I'd say it's safe to say the Dark Angels were not remotely as open as the other Legiones Astartes (a couple exceptions notwithstanding).

 

Now, to be fair, I'm not arguing that the Dark Angels Legion and the Unforgiven were the same thing. The Dark Angels of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy were the products of a culture that valued ritualized secrecy and a hierarchy that promoted individuals (and made secrets known to them) on the basis of trust as well as battlefield performance. They were not as obsessive or compromised by deceit as their post-Heresy "descendants" because there was no great crime hanging on them.