FA slots and Melta: your experience required please Brothers

[Brother Raul]

   Hail Brothers!. Emperor protect you. Finalising a list I am hoping to play a bit over Christmas and there seems to be a glaring issue with meltacide V.S bike melta units, the more I play the ASM meltas in pods the more I think the bikes would be better.

 

  Could my esteemed Brothers please give me you take/ experience with this issue. X2 bike squads (x2 bikes + attack bike{multi melta}) seems very impressive on paper but I have 0 experience in using a bike squad let alone a multi melta. Its a bit more expensive that the ASM meltacide pods but seems better tactically/strategically e.g better equipt to deal with poor dice and the enemies good positioning.

 

   Plus I think the pods would be better spent on tacs/ dreads. Any opinions on th topic would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

I find bikes generally unimpressive these days. They are pretty expensive in a day and age where the increased toughness barely matters with all the high strength shooting and Grav. If they jink, they lose their firepower. Most of the time you may have your armour save, but you can only save so many wounds with a 3+.

 

For those reasons I would prefer the Meltacide. It is cheaper when looking at equivalent unit sizes and has access to JP or a free Pod, both of which would allow you do drop on a weak side. A bike will have trouble getting there within a turn without getting shot to pieces.

 

If you want bikes, I suggest looking into Grav and adding a bike Sanguinary Priest to get more mileage out of them. When it comes to Melta, I prefer coming from above with JP, Speeders or Pods.

[Jønke]

What immersturm said!

 

Thing with meltacide squads is the DS capabilities. You find a tank and in turn two there's a good chance you wrecked it. You pretty much trade the cost of a meltacide squad for removing a high threat target. If your meltacide squad do anything else for that game its just icing on the cake.

[Charlo]

Two meltacide for insurance against the big things (e.g. you put one on each side of a knight to prevent shield shenanigans) is a great 200 or so points. They're also good for bulking out your pod count. I'm a fan of the two melta + two inferno pistol variety, as you can see below

If you put deathwind launchers on the pods you can really make them into a much bigger threat for your opponent two - no one wants S5 blasts in thier deployment zone :D

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah177/nevscorner/20150804_223725_zpsaan3eq2g.jpg

Like Immer stated, bikes are just better used for Grav and even assaults. Grav feels dirty to use but sometimes we just need it, and Grav bikers feel fairly costed at least...

[Jolemai]

The trouble with anecdotes is that they are just that; certainly what works for me may not work for you and vica versa.

These are main, cost efficient ways of utilising FA melta:

• Attack Bike Squadrons - this was the best way in the previous Codex and whilst the revival of the Bike Squadron has made them less of an auto-include, they still have potential to do damage. Also, there's always room to take a single one in support.
• Metalcide - Five-man RAS in a Drop Pod with two meltaguns and a Sergeant with either a combi-melta or dual inferno pistols (add melta bombs for taste). Can be useful, can be incredibly accurate with a certain Legacy of Glory, can be versatile by switching out an inferno pistol for a grav pistol (meta dependent).
• Bike Squadron - Three Bikes with two meltaguns, Sergeant with combi-melta (and melta bombs) and an Attack Bike. Weighs in cheaper than the grav version but is it more efficient? Possibly less versatile and this version competes with the Attack Bike Squadron above and can add extra bodies for security.
• Land Speeder Squadrons - arguably the more expensive choice, a lot can be said for the dual multi-melta version what with Deep Strike and its speed. However, we don't see this option that much which is a shame really.

You also need to take into account that each of the above has a model (or models) that are a pain to construct/paint!

As for me, I get along with melta units almost as much as I do with lascannon ones

[Boudan]

One good things about meltacide is that the drop pods, in numbers, are excellent for interrupting the movement plans for enemy armour. Don't want that enemy landraider/wraithknight/whatever walking down that particular lane through the tabletop terrain? Ploppod.

 

I like bikes conceptually, but meltacide is more in the MSU style of play that appears to have an advantage in many places. I haven't had the opportunity to witness a game involving more than two landspeeders. I'd enjoy seeing a synergistic list with maximum speeder squadrons taken.

[evildrcheese]

I've been using MM Attacks Bikes pretty much solidly from 5th and I'm not convinced that meltaside are better.

 

I run a squad of 2 MM bikes which I think is in a similar point range to a 5 man ASM with 2 meltas and a combi Melta.

 

 

Bikes have 1 less W compared to ASM but have better T and access to a cover safe. Also you can reposition you squad to ensure wound allocation means you have to take 3 wounds before you lose a model.

 

Also once you lose the meltas from the ASM they're basically useless. Your opponent needs to kill the whole bike squad to neutralize the threat.

 

Better range on the meltas and better movement allows you to more affectively 'do the dance' of getting into Melta range.

 

Drop ASM are basically static once they've dropped and Melta isn't as reliable at one shotting tanks as it used to be. Once you drop you might not get a second chance to nail your target, either due to getting shot to pieces or your enemy moving his tanks away from you. Whilst the issue with Melta affects Attack Bikes too, I find your able get a second chance with bikes.

 

The higher T means you have more options for effectively tieing up units in assault whilst awaiting your hammer assault elements to join the party. MEQ vs Bikes wounding on 5+ rather than 4s for ASM. GEQ vs bikes wounding on 6+ rather than 5s for ASM.

 

Combined with the VV you have an excellent chance of giving them infiltrate which puts them in Melta range T1

 

In my opinion MM attack bikes are much more useful and frankly, better than drop asm.

 

EDC

[Charlo]

I'd never argue post Melta the ASM are useless. Even against other Marines, say you have just two dudes left, that's 6 S5 attacks on the charge. Hopefully you can tie something up or even take out a light vehicle! Or a heavy one from the rear!

 

Plus the more shooting they put into your disposable dudes the more your others are laughing :D

[Frater Cornelius]

My reason to choose Meltas (or Plasma as the case may be) RAS over Bikes is that the RAS are immune to alpha strike with a rather reliable means of deploy from reserves.

[Brother Raul]

True, r.e deployment and immunity. But I am getting caught up on the multi melta I guess.

 

I like the versatility of the bikes for the reasons evildrcheese mentioned.

[Charlo]

It boils down to do you want that versatility and vulnerability or do you want a (mostly) one shot unit almost, but not guaranteed for success?

 

Depends on the list as a whole too of course.

[evildrcheese]

It boils down to do you want that versatility and vulnerability or do you want a (mostly) one shot unit almost, but not guaranteed for success?

 

Depends on the list as a whole too of course.

Do you mean versatility and durability rather that versatility and vulnerability?

 

As I say, I never leave home without my MM attack bikes when playing my BA.

 

EDC

[RedemptionNL]

He means vulnerability to be alpha struck, if deployed on the table.

[Charlo]

He means vulnerability to be alpha struck, if deployed on the table.

Correctamundo.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

He means vulnerability to be alpha struck, if deployed on the table.

 

It really sucks getting hit by Grav-Centurions coming out of pod with the new eye piece that ignores cover...

 

The Hunters Eye:

The tribes of Chogoris are famed throughout the Imperium for the consummate skill of their horse archers. It is written in the Scrolls of the Plains that the Hunter’s Eye – an ingeniously constructed bionic eye of great age and unrivalled quality – was created in honour of this aspect of the White Scars’ heritage. This device picks out augur-assessed weak spots in the quarry’s defences, enabling its wearer to strike with uncanny accuracy, or to relay this information via dataghost to any other friendly forces engaging the target.

A model equipped with the Hunter’s Eye adds one to his Ballistic Skill and all his ranged weapons have the Ignores Cover special rule. Whilst a model equipped with the Hunter’s Eye is part of a unit, all other ranged weapons carried by models in that unit also have the Ignores Cover special rule.

[LutherMax]

That is sick (if somewhat situational)! How many melta bombs is this Hunter's Eye, of which you speak?

[RedemptionNL]

4 bombs. And I wouldn't call giving permanent Ignore Cover to an entire squad of your choice that situational. And it's very reliable too, unlike having to fish for Perfect Timing.

[LutherMax]

I guess. When I said situational I meant that for it to be of any use you need to be targeting a unit in cover, which they may or may not encounter throughout the game. They're slow too so aren't that good at hunting such targets out, but I guess cover is a common thing to encounter...

 

Pretty good value at 4 bombs though...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I mean with the omni scope you got split fire and ignores cover, with a pod it goes where it is needed to make the most damage. It takes down pretty much everything reliably, especially at AP2, and says hello to Wraith Knights. My mate has already dropped 7 of the accursed things since Kuyon's release. It has been pretty brutal against my boys in red too.

[Remtek]

Really hard to say what is best, depends on mission and meta. I never had success with meltacide in pods, if you could chose to hold drop pods in reserve first turn i think they would be a lot better and i don't really like going too many pods. People can deploy in ways to deny incoming melta, or if they don't have any heavy armor it becomes much less useful.

 

Recent tournaments and pick up games i have been taking 2 meltas in a free Rhino, it's much better unit when facing lists with low armor and vs iknights you can bumrush them with 24" movement turn one, it can become really awkward for knights to deal with them. To kill something shooting out of a Rhino is often a lot harder then one can imagine since you have 3 hull points and 3+ ablaitive wounds protectng the melta. Also playing vs battle companies you will get more milage of having 2 meltas in a Rhino.

 

The single MM attack bike is also still really solid, easy to hide out of sight, and with a 24" melta threat range it can force things that want to move forward backwards, even though the odds of one melta doing anything is low the threat is still there. And vs lists with little armor, the attack bike can often tie up shooty units for several turns in close combat.

 

My two favorite are:

Single MM Attack bikes

5man assault squad with 2 melta in a Rhino.

[Captain Caine 24th]

Attack bikes have been a staple in my lists for a very long time. Conceptually my lists are unimposing, but the reality that isn't immediately apparent is that my lists are usually very mobile. The attack bikes move in with everyone else and can concentrate firepower or provide cover. But terrain and an opponent's good target priority can shut this sort of play style down. 

 

As for pods, my 7th edition pod list never really lived up to the dream that it once was (and I have a lot of pods). Across a lot of games, piecemeal suicide units really haven't done all that well. My chief problems have been limited mobility and failure to actually kill the intended target. A decent player will anticipate pods and reserve units, set up in heavy cover, use cheap units as bullet sponges, or might even set up counter charges. At the same time if you have enough pods, you can counter this by launching a wave of useless pods, forcing him to face your alpha strike dream team second turn. The old common wisdom was to always take an odd number of pods to leverage the rule that you round up on the turn they come in. Nowadays I'm not opposed to taking two, as this allows you to drop one you need, and one you don't care about (generally I should say this applies more to a specialty unit set up like centurions or an assassin).

 

A lone melta assault squad probably won't do all that well. But three could be interesting. Despite liking bike squads a bit more, I generally like to at least try and take out anti-air obstacles turn 1 if I can. As much as people talk how bad hydras are, my stormravens have been shot down more times than I'd care to admit. So I suppose at least in the context of a two stormraven list I really like some kind of suicide melta. 

[Brother Raul]

That's what I am finding. Oh so you play C:BA? Alright I'll just bubble wrap that wave serpent with some dire avengers ect. I guess I should settle on my lascannon platform first and the melta side of things will take care of itself. Just not sure of if I need a pred with the x2 Attack bike squads with melta.

 

   Here is a thought however, has anyone tried dropping their meltacide pods turn 2? I play with x2 counts as pods (templates) so I would love to hear how 5 pod lists have gone if deploying meltacide 2nd turn/

[Bukimimaru]

I'm playing against Eldar on wednesday and I plan to drop my Meltacide squads on turn two.

 

Turn one I'm dropping a Fraggioso with a Heavy Flamer / Frag Cannon and a 5 man Heavy flamer / combi-flamer Tac Squad.

The plan is to drop in and scatter his troops as much as possible with the massive amount of flamer templates I'll be laying down.

 

 

Hopfully he'll be so distracted he won't have the forethought to prepare for the 2 Meltacide squads dropping in behind the wave serpents on turn two.

 

We'll see how it goes.

[Jolemai]

Not a bad idea, certainly any general worth his salt will deploy with his rear against the board edge or bubble wrapped. Of course, this can means your Meltacide can get baited out of position...

[Bukimimaru]

Not a bad idea, certainly any general worth his salt will deploy with his rear against the board edge or bubble wrapped. Of course, this can means your Meltacide can get baited out of position...

 

The way I run my meltacide squads, the only postion they need to have is within 6" of a vehicle.

I never expect them to last more than one round; If they can drop down and pop a vehicle worth their own points value or more then I'm happy for my opponent to waste a round shooting them all to death whilst all my other units can move up the board unmolested.

 

Also, if my opponent knows my melta squads are dropping turn two or later, it might force them to keep their vehicles in a less advantagious position.

 

At least, thats the theory. I'll be putting it into practise tomorrow night.