[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[depthcharge12]

Only moritat has that special rule, you can attach any character you like to the destroyer squad :-)

 

I have to think on it, we have a game next monday, last one before the campaign and I really need that victory :-D

Good news is no LoWs of any kind on campaign haha

Tommorow I'll come here with a mindblowing solution, be sure of that.

 

What can you expect of your BA opponent listwise? Are you dead set on interemptors?

Unfortunately I moved away from him so I won’t be playing his list anytime soon - but there’s always that threat of super deathstars with 2+/3++/5+++ whatever or giant tanky blobs

[rendingon1+]

I decided to go full terminator chivalry with 7-8 cenobium (2-3 hammers). Why:

1) Plasma casters will still take some wounds semi reliably

2) terraswords will deny FnP at initiative and wound on 2+ (+ stasis blast will make them strike at the same time or before if he fumbles his "night" roll on turn 2-3)

3) Reapers of hosts naturally

4) Duelling sarge with hammer WS6, 4++ and 2 wounds will be a match for any character he has there and if Konrad takes up a challange overspill will not hurt as much.

5) Attachmed character: chaplain (most likely, to make every attack count also I don't want to mess up fear rolls vs Curze)

6) Transport: spartan

 

I plan to charge them simultaneously with 1/2 cortus' if able, I must also invent some juicy bait for them to be where I want. If he runs 15 guys with 2 medics, a chaplain + curze as he did in 2 previous battles I think Knights and cortus will sort them out in one game turn counting both shooting and cc.

[Gorgoff]

I decided to go full terminator chivalry with 7-8 cenobium (2-3 hammers). Why:

1) Plasma casters will still take some wounds semi reliably

2) terraswords will deny FnP at initiative and wound on 2+ (+ stasis blast will make them strike at the same time or before if he fumbles his "night" roll on turn 2-3)

3) Reapers of hosts naturally

4) Duelling sarge with hammer WS6, 4++ and 2 wounds will be a match for any character he has there and if Konrad takes up a challange overspill will not hurt as much.

5) Attachmed character: chaplain (most likely, to make every attack count also I don't want to mess up fear rolls vs Curze)

6) Transport: spartan

 

I plan to charge them simultaneously with 1/2 cortus' if able, I must also invent some juicy bait for them to be where I want. If he runs 15 guys with 2 medics, a chaplain + curze as he did in 2 previous battles I think Knights and cortus will sort them out in one game turn counting both shooting and cc.

Why not give him hell with Phosphex?

[rendingon1+]

Well, we have quad phospex ban in our group till april :-) and besides those cover saves and fnp makes it highly ineffective anyway.

[Nomadic Thunder]

So quiet?

I suppose once the book is more widely distributed and people have had a bit of time to read and process we can get down to the nitty gritty, hey?

[Mango Polo]

It's tricky to process because of all the rules and dependencies. Such much for Space Wolves and Thousand Sons being the most out there legions, organization-wise.

[Ficinus]

I'm holding off until I get the book so I don't say anything I need to take back.

[Gederas]

It's tricky to process because of all the rules and dependencies. Such much for Space Wolves and Thousand Sons being the most out there legions, organization-wise.

I mean, did you expect anything different with Dark Angels clearly being based on Medieval Knights, apparently even before the Lion showed up? :lol:

 

Those knightly orders got super complex....

[GorgeousGoat]

I think the "Tactica" of the 1st Legion in this book using the Legion RoW are the most complex and over-ly complicated yet.

They had the opportunity to offer so many different playstyles with some drawbacks but I am looking at 25pt taxes all over and when you look at the some, like Firewing - if I lose a certain part of my army. I auto-lose...!?!?!

 

The Deathwing one, if we are not holding an objective every turn - we give our opponent 1VP?! 

I must have "Scion of the XX" to make troops compulsory and we have "Thrust" move benefits when no Dark Angels legion unit has a jet-pack?

 

It doesn't quite all add up and work. I can see what they've tried to do, but they could have used Ironwing/Ravenwing from book 6 protocols (toned the RW down a bit) and come up with 4 others. Nobody would have kicked off and people would have got it.

 

The crowning glory for this book, which is I've waited years for - is the fact the Lion has a gun that he can't shoot and then charge as it's Salvo and Primarch's aren't relentless.

 

I know I appear negative but as for tactics, I'm left hoping to use book 6 Row or generic RoW like Pride of the Legion.. as the others are too restrictive and complex. I want to play toys in themed way, I don't want to have to understand that if I lose all models with Scion of the Deathwing.. I auto-lose the game in the Deathwing RoW because I can't hold this objective. In the MIDDLE OF THE TABLE!

So I am preparing a Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw with the Lion, Primus Medicae and as many Terminators as I can get to just get to it Turn 1 to not lose the game. That's well over 1000pts to not lose a game.. explain to me how I am meant to benefit and win or even play narratively if I have to park something on an objective every turn?!

[Gorgoff]

Well, you can buy Thallax if you take a cortex controller and they have thrust moves.

[Nomadic Thunder]

They wouldn’t benefit anyway as they don’t have a character to gain the scion rule.

[IamAlphariusxx20]

So outside the rites of war the Scion thing only provides one incredibly small benefit for 25pts? Did they mistype 5pts?

[Slips]

So outside the rites of war the Scion thing only provides one incredibly small benefit for 25pts? Did they mistype 5pts?

Nope.

 

The worst offender though is the Hekantonstyka (sp).

 

While it has easier access to your ICs and doesnt limit them in RoWs or whatever, the bonus you get for the cost youre paying is...unfortunate. 

[Nomadic Thunder]

I think a breacher blob with an attached apothecary could be quite a fluffy candidate for the unbroken vows central objective holders.

Whilst rather costly giving one of the characters the stormwing scion upgrade and the other the deathwing (obviously) they would make for a hard nug to crack (barring whirlwind scorpii etc.) with the feel no pain bonus and bs2 snapshots from the stormwing scion they could well deter any would-be assault units.

[Erren]

I would consider giving them a Herald or other source of Fearless. They’re not very kill-y and I could see them getting wiped in CC if you get caught out of position.

 

I just really want to make a Herald and use those large pretty transfers!

[Erren]

I just noticed that the Navigator’s Lidless Stare ability makes models under the template take an Initiative test or suffer instant death with no armor save. New use for Stasis Grenades! I may have to add him into a Termite.

[Ficinus]

So, looking at the new Rites of War, all of them except for the Storm of War follow the following pattern: Additional units are considered Troops, Buffs for units with the relevant Scions of the ____wing upgrades, and a series of limitation on list construction, no allies/fortifications, and no Independent Characters from other detachments can join units from the Rite.  Some also add in lose conditions, like the Unbroken Vow's central objective and Serpent's Bane's priority targets.  The fact that all of the rites of war hide special rules behind upgrades that cost points seems like a penalty, especially considering these upgrades are often either worthless (Scion of the Ravenwing) or overpriced (Scion of the Ironwing).  So, effectively, the Dark Angels are paying points for things other Rites of War give away for free.

 

As someone who plays/played Ironwing, the new Ironwing rite (Steel Fist) is a huge downgrade.  It takes away all of the special rules (most importantly BS5 squadrons and Tank Hunter on Dreads, the latter of which was particularly amazing) and in turn grants Predator squadrons as troops.  The Predator squads don't have turret limitations like Armoured Breakthrough, but... is that worth it?  Sure, it grants other buffs, but hides them behind an overpriced upgrade and they themselves... aren't worth the price of the upgrade.  And since Steel Fist is most comparable to Armoured Breakthrough as opposed to the old Ironwing Protocols, let's compare those.  Steel Fist allows your predators to take any turret, plasma all day for your troops that are also tanks!  But Armoured Breakthrough makes all your Rhino-chassis vehicles fast, which is awesome: your rhinos flat-out faster and your predators get to shoot more guns.  What's not to love!  That's so much better than a 6+ invuln when certain characters are embarked or some leadership and save rerolls from tank damage.

 

Ravenwing similarly loses most of its buffs in The Seeker's Arrow (riding off the table, rerolls to wound against tough stuff, rad grenades).  Now, it does have some alright buffs (2+ outflanking and +2 to run/turbo-boost and CHARGE!), but those buffs are hidden behind the Scion of the Ravenwing upgrade (an upgrade that DOESN'T BENEFIT BIKES AND JETBIKES), so you're paying a premium for it.  The only time when your bikes and jetbikes are benefiting from Scion of the Ravenwing is when you pay for a second upgrade to grant your Independent Characters hit and run.  You're paying almost a Centurion's worth of points to get buffs that, honestly, should come free with such a restrictive rite of war.  At least these rite of war buffs, though, are good, even if probably overcosted.

 

Firewing looks pretty cool.  The Scion of the Firewing upgrade grants Hatred (characters) which basically is hatred to every Legiones Astartes unit (some don't have sergeants with characters, but most do or will have an IC in them), so it might (might) be worth its points.  It also grants some pretty huge buffs on top of that, and making Seekers (which can take Proteus transports) troops is pretty cool.  The Infiltrate buff is pretty cool too.  I think there are certainly things that could be done with this list, whether it's Seekers in Proteus's or Firewing Enigmatus Cabals as little murder darts to soften up the enemy before your mainline hits.  I'm not sure how good the Enigmatus Cabals are, but, it seems cool, maybe just new toy syndrome (but potentially 6 attacks each with hatred and maybe rending seems nasty, though you have to wait until turn 2).

 

Deathwing, a lot has been said about it elsewhere, the central objective limitation is massive, probably too massive.

 

Dreadwing, Interemptor troops is brutal, Destroyer troops is cool, a full table to difficult terrain is hilarious, especially if you're fighting a tankline.  Take it in an Apoc game and just ruin everyone's day.

 

Stormwing is... weird, but seems fun.  I wish the Centurion upgrade was available for more than just the two compulsory troop units.  BS2 snapshots on 20 man Tactical squads with Centurions in them seems cool.  I'm not sure it's worth it.  The orders are neat, but other than the Fury of the Legion one not that that great.  I guess Furious Assault is pretty cool, both on Tactical squads and Assault squads, but it doesn't gel well with the overwatch and Furying of the Tacticals.  I like it, but the limitations are probably too severe (the entire army can have at most 12 units with half being Tactical or Assault marines).  It could be cool to do it as all Assault squads, but the Stormwing buff of BS2 snapshots really grants them little benefit.

 

Overall, the Scion of the ____wing just seems horribly thought out.  The Stormwing's rite of war is based on Tactical and Assault marines but the scion rule only really helps tacticals.  Scion of the Ravenwing doesn't help the defining units of the Ravenwing.  Scion of the Ironwing is just... terrible (it's the inverse of extra armour but canceled out by extra armour, it shouldn't cost more points than extra armour).  Scion of the Deathwing is a lamer version of master crafted (for more points).  Scion of the Dreadwing is a lamer version of Move through Cover.  Like, why?  Why to all five of these.  They really should have been priced individually, since Firewing's Hatred (character) is way better than Ironwing's whatever.

 

I'm excited by Firewing (both the Enigmatus Cabal and the rite of war).  The Ironwing robots seems cool.  The Deathwing companions seems cool, as do the Knights Cenobium.  There's some cool stuff peppered in, no doubt.  But the Rites and the Scions were... not what I was hoping for.

[Slips]

Now, correct me if Im wrong, but, I havent seen anything in the book that explicitly states the Ironwing Protocol and Ravenwing RoWs are obsolete and to not be used.

 

Sure, Fist of Steel exists and forces scions of the Ironwing, but due to not sharing the Ironwing Protocol name, it doesnt replace it; same with the Ravenwing.

 

So, as far as I can tell, both are still valid and legal.

[Ficinus]

I hope so, but it does feel a little wonky.  Like, am I playing this on a technicality or is this as intended by the designers?  I'd love a ruling on that from the design team themselves because I don't want to play unfairly with people in my gaming group.

[Slips]

I hope so, but it does feel a little wonky.  Like, am I playing this on a technicality or is this as intended by the designers?  I'd love a ruling on that from the design team themselves because I don't want to play unfairly with people in my gaming group.

I mean, the best example is the BA and White Scars who had their RoWs reprinted with the same name and everything, more or less.

 

So to me, this would be good and kosher. If you do feel oddly about it since they lack the Scion of X requirements the Crusade RoWs do, then just elect to buy the upgrade for the relevant models like the other RoWs force you to.

[Erren]

They're both completely valid. Maybe they'll be FAQ'd out, but at this point I kinda doubt it. At least not without fixing the 6 new ones (looking at you in particular Ravenwing!).

 

Stormwing only allows 11 units, because there have to be MORE tacticals and assault squads. And one of those has to be a Stormwing Master of the Legion or the Lion (and then another compulsory HQ). I just don't see this one getting used. 20-man squads are cool, but running this many would be ... a lot. And there's nothing here to help with mobility or mitigate blasts. I guess I was just hoping for some sort of Breacher-themed rite for ZM and I'm sad.

 

While I agree that the Scion of the ____wing upgrades are overcosted, I think you're slightly undervaluing the Ironwing one. Assuming no AP, you're getting to upgrade the damage results half the time (if you don't wreck them), whereas extra armor only downgrades the results 1/6th of the time. And holding vehicles still for one turn can be a big deal (also -1A for walkers in CC, apparently). I'm not here to argue it's worth 25 points, but probably 10.

 

I still can't imagine what was running through the designers' heads when they made the Hekatonystika upgrades that expensive for a single model. Most are worse than Master Crafted! Or on par with it. I could see that cost if it conferred to the unit, but otherwise I'll never use it.

 

Most Scions options are overcosted by 10-15 points, and you'd often want to buy 2+ of them.

 

On the plus side, I really like our units. I think the Inner Circle Knights are good (though I still want my 2W Preceptor back). I think the Deathwing Companions are good (the power fists should be a free swap and they need to fix the Terminator Dedicated Transport to a Spartan, though). I like the Firewing Enigmatus Cabal, though I suspect I will have a hard time making them work. Maybe attach a bike forgelord for rad grenades or jumppack vigilator for stealth. I'm going to enjoy popping my Interemptors out of a drill with a Navigator. I hope the Excindio are on 60mm bases for ZM (otherwise they're expensive, slow, and short-ranged). I like all 5 named characters. And we got rid of that AWFUL Covenant of Death rule.

 

Firewing Enigmatus Cabal with a Vigilator and the Legion Recon Company RoW have a 2+ cover save the first turn!

[Ficinus]

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff in the units.  And I'll say it again, I really like the Firewing rite of war and the Dreadwing probably has some good options if you take lots of jump packs and interemptors in pods/termites so you can more or less ignore the difficult terrain while your opponent suffers with difficult terrain.  And even if the Excindio is on a massive base, I'll definitely take one a few times just to try it out (especially since I have some conversions that could serve as a proxy until a real one comes out).  I think all of our unique units have something to offer, even if it's only rule of cool on Enigmatus Cabals and Excindio Automata.

 

As to the Scion of the Ironwing... I don't think I'm undervaluing it too much.  The only weapons it really benefits are missile launchers and autocannons, and even those barely.  I guess Volkite Culverins and Calivers if you're shooting them at Rhinos or the backs of tanks.  And I guess power mauls, terranic greatswords, and charnable sabres if they rend... uh, force staves and heavy chainswords.  Krak grenades against a rhino chassis.  Basically, my point is it's highly situational at best.  There just aren't that many occasions where a Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) unit is going to be attacking armour with an AP3 or worse weapon and be able to Pen (as opposed to glance).  It benefits AP 2 on 1/3 rolls too, so that helps some, not at much.  It's just not a great buff for it's price.  It's especially not the sort of thing I'm going to put on troop units to protect their transports in the Steel Fist Rite of War.  Maybe a heavy support squad, maybe.  But certainly not at the current cost.

 

I was also hoping for the Stormwing to have a ZM themed Rite of War.

[Gederas]

So, I just noticed something...

 

Lion doesn't get benefits of the Deathwing Rite of War, nor is he able to be an HQ in it like Magnus can be in his Bodyguard RoW.

 

Actually, the Lion doesn't get any benefits from any of the Rites of War. He also can't issue orders in the Stormwing RoW.

 

Man, he's a moody git isn't he? :lol:

[corvus.calvariam]

Beyond giving his guys half of Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers), the Lion has about as much strategic use as Angron.

[GorgeousGoat]

I'm back to using Pride of the Lion (legion) and will run book 6 RoWs.

These RoW's we were given and waited for are so over the top complicated and cost bloated. 

 

I'm really quite disappointed in the game designers for these. 

 

The models = brilliant. 

The RoW rules = shoddy at best.