Spartan vs. Caestus...

[AfroCampbell]

I know that everyone has been all over the Spartan-train for years now, however, I find the more I look at the Caestus the more I find it packs a punch in a very comparable way.

True, it does not have the same transport capacity, however as a transport I could easily pack Sigismund, 8 Termies, and a Primus Medicae in here, Deep Strike it, and use the Melta doom canon to pound the poos out of any nearby vehicle, or Ram them at strength 10. 

 

In all likelihood it will survive a turn or two shooting at stuff with its large AP1 blast template blowing stuff sky-high, whilst also being an assault vehicle delivering my doom payload to wreck face.

 

 

Its ovbiously a very death-star list move, but interesting I havent seen the Caestus used more...?

[Slips]

Its mostly because the earliest you can exoect to charge with one barring T1 reserves is T3 which might be too late.

 

Its still amazing though! An Av13 flyer with a 5++ in the front arc means that you have less to fear from interceptor fire when you drop in.

[1ncarnadine]

The Caestus is a very cool idea, but like Slips mentioned, it comes on late which is why it doesn't see use.

 

I wish it made sense to combo it with Perturabo's turn 1 reserves, except he already grants Terminators Deep Strike and that's probably what you'd throw in the Caestus. The Sons of Horus might be able to make use of it with Edge of the Spear and 10 Reavers inside?

[AfroCampbell]

hmmm ok, well I could just start it on the table and zoom it into play...???? 

[Slips]

You need a Skyshield Landing pad for that. flyers cant start on the board T1.

[AfroCampbell]

ah dayum... that is a bit rough then... yea i can see why not the greatest now...

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It's a shame it doesn't share the Drop Assault rule.

 

Then it would be amazeballs.

[Athrawes]

It's a shame it doesn't share the Drop Assault rule.

 

Then it would be amazeballs.

 

That is what the Kharybdis is for. 

 

I've had good luck using the Caestus in games, it's a niche vehicle but deadly if you use it right. If you re looking for something to get to grips with the enemy as quickly as possible, use a kharybdis, but if you want a strong mobile reserve/distraction, take the caestus.

 

It is too powerful with krak missiles and its magna melta (and str 10 ramming) for an opponent to ignore, but its too resilient  to be destroyed by anything other than concentrated fire/luck. In, my opinion it can be a waste to stick a deathstar in the assault ram becuase (as has been stated) you never know when it will arrive and deathstars really need to get to grips with the enemy as early as possible.

 

Instead, stick a powerful but (relatively) inexpensive assault unit inside that wont devastate your battle plans if lost due to a crash. Keep them embarked until end of game objective grabs/targets of opportunity. In the meanwhile, wreak havoc on your opponent ramming anything you please, magna/meltaing your opponents death stars and generally distracting your enemy to allow the rest of your army to focus on its targets.

[Charlo]

A small unit of terminators and a consul can work under the above description.

 

Or perhaps a small unit of vets with Melta bombs, some power weapons, and furious charge/ fearless? That unit can threaten most other units, hold an objective or support your line where needed.

 

For fluff use breachers though :P

 

You could even consider flying on, melting a transport and then deploying the breachers to hold against an objective next turn...

[AfroCampbell]

I would love to do that Charlo, but the turn 3 delay... ouchies... so much lost potential there.

[Charlo]

Well you can fly on turn two and disgorge your missiles and slag a vehicle/ squad with the melta still! The unit inside is just insurance for later. Also - Ram something!

[1ncarnadine]

That's why I was thinking Reavers, under Black Reaving or Maloghurst. Edge of the Spear bonus helps a little bit to get the Caestus on the board. 10 man squad with maybe 3 power swords and a fist on the Chieftain comes to around 250 points, can hop out and wipe something off an objective and they're troops so scoring, but not so expensive that you feel the loss too badly.

[Athrawes]

I would love to do that Charlo, but the turn 3 delay... ouchies... so much lost potential there.

 

If you're looking for a flying land raider, the Caestus is always going to disapoint you. That is not how it should be used. Putting something expensive in the caestus cripples a list. Instead, put something cheap inside which can contest or capture an objective. (but never count on them haveing to it, they basically should act as a scoring unit of opportunity)

 

If you put anything inside it that would cripple your list by not being active until late game, you're misunderstanding the Caestus. Thats not what it excels at. 

 

If you include a Ceastus in your list, you need to count on it coming on late game, and plan for never disembarking it's units. It is best used as a big scary distraction for you opponent late game, that can take the heat off the main part of your army. It is survivable, fast moving, and a serious threat to pretty much anything short of a Titan.

[Caillum]

Caestus works well as a transport for Tactical Marines in an Orbital Assault or Angel's Wrath army...

[Terminus]

Caestus is pretty sweet with 40K Raven Guard. That said, a Spartan may not get you a charge until turn 3 either (although still much more likely than the Ram where that is the best case scenario).

 

As for the Kharybdis, I really want one, but it's just so damn expensive. Someone mentioned krak missiles. How is it getting krak missiles? That would actually make it worth the cost since it would be basically two dreadclaws + deathstorm pod in one, but all I can see are the crappy S6 Ap5 storm launchers.

[1ncarnadine]

Athrawes meant on the Caestus; it can exchange its wing-mounted havoc launchers for frag/krak missile launchers for super cheap and should probably always do this.

 

Krak on a Kharybdis though... one can dream

[Shaolin_Monkey]

You can always take a sky shield to get it starting on the board....

[GreyCrow]

Although, is waiting for Turn 3 a bad thing for the charge ? I've noticed that an all out assault rushing forward in Turn 1 usually tends to an army losing steam at Turn 3 against more discipline players who pace themselves.

 

The Spartan is good but has some disadvantages : First, it's not as mobile as a Caestus, and it has a more limited strike range due to it being forced to start on the table. Which means that the opponent know exactly where the deathstar unit is and can plan around it in his strateegy. He might not stop it but he'll know how to delay it or lure it away.

 

With the Caestus, you can keep a fresh unit for a decisive charge at Turn 3 or 4, exactly where you want it to be, leaving you an extra turn to prepare for the decisive action. Obviously, you can do that with the Spartan too, but it may work better on a slower army than with armies that are very fast.

[Terminus]

Although, is waiting for Turn 3 a bad thing for the charge ? I've noticed that an all out assault rushing forward in Turn 1 usually tends to an army losing steam at Turn 3 against more discipline players who pace themselves.

 

The Spartan is good but has some disadvantages : First, it's not as mobile as a Caestus, and it has a more limited strike range due to it being forced to start on the table. Which means that the opponent know exactly where the deathstar unit is and can plan around it in his strateegy. He might not stop it but he'll know how to delay it or lure it away.

 

With the Caestus, you can keep a fresh unit for a decisive charge at Turn 3 or 4, exactly where you want it to be, leaving you an extra turn to prepare for the decisive action. Obviously, you can do that with the Spartan too, but it may work better on a slower army than with armies that are very fast.

A turn 3 assault is not a terrible thing, as even with a Spartan you may not have a unit in assault range by turn 2 if your opponent isn't very accommodating.

The problem is with the Caestus a turn 3 assault is the best case scenario, and could be longer. Even if it doesn't happen all the time, are you willing to give up, say, 25% of your games because the deathstar doesn't get to kick face until turn 5 because your opponent has reserve manipulation shenanigans?

 

Then there's the issue that if you invest a lot in this unit, the rest of your army will be outnumbered and picked apart, and in no condition to support your deathstar when they do arrive.

[Slips]

That and get ever-so-unlucky, Caestus gets shot out of the sky with everyone inside it and...poof...goes the deathstar. Potentially.

[GreyCrow]

Well, aren't we all aware of what they say about eggs and baskets

[Hesh Kadesh]

That's kind of the point. If you play with hidden lists and deployments (requires a bit of trust) you can sucker punch your opponent into thinking your dudes are being carried. A Night Lord or Imperial Fist Pride List with Caestus and Deep Striking Terminators could give you a bit of meaty double threat.

 

Also, don't forget Orth can ride in a Caestus and buffs the all the Rams to basically AP1 S9 Tank Hunters, giving his own a Tank Hunting Magna Melta and Missile Launcher.

[Slips]

Also makes the Magna Melta Tank Hunters.

[Brofist]

To be fair to the Caestus, a spartan living long enough to drop its deathstar turn 2-3 is also a best case scenario. It's more likely to happen, but at the same time the popularity of the Spartan means more opponents will have a hard counter to it vs an AV13 flier. Or two. 

 

I feel its easy to lean on the Spartan as its good out of the box and straightforward to use. You can get units across the table for less points, though, and the saved points can go to use somewhere else. You can even ask yourself why you're doing it in the first place. If everybody has a deathstar in a spartan you might be better off blocking that unit and using the saved points to be better somewhere your opponent will be worse.

[Lord Blackwood]

This is a very illuminating and insightful thread , thank you all for the knowledge and experiences you are sharing. 

My lists are usually dominated by my Knights but the Raider and  Proxied Spartan do draw a good bit of fire on them. That said the Spartan has ( in 10 or so games )  only failed to guarantee me a charge on turn 2   maybe 3 times.  

I dont know why but I am just terrified of putting things in Flyers ,  My stormwolves are more often  seen as gunboats than  transports because the idea that yer flyer getting shot down and losing that unit and the flyer is just terrifying not to mention everyone is packing at minimum 2 sources of strong anti air at my store , regardless of game system XD 

I feel like my next purchase is really between the assault claw and the Spartan and  is leaning toward the spartan because well its a armor 14 all around brick that rarely fails me.